What if BG has a vest?

[P95Carry]

Just imagine - an unavoidable confrontation and the BG is a cut above others - he has a vest!!!

You might not realize this until having been sure you'd made at least two hits - and he is still there in your face. Could almost be too late.

Therefore, do we - should we - train even more for the head shot/shots?

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[Shotgun Willie]

Interesting. I have seen many scenes on 'Cops' or 'wildest videos' and such were a BG got the jump on the LEO and put one or two in the vest of the officer but the officer was still able to end the confrontation.

Great question you present. How do we train for combat situations using a head shot. The BG may not be standing still in front of you like a still target tends to represent. If he or you is on the move doesn't that make the head shot more unlikely to make and possibly dangerous to the background?

(At least with the head shot you dont have to worry as much about the BG playing possum)

Don't know much about tactics. Haven't been through training yet so I won't even call this .02 worth more like .01, but these are the things that came to mind when I read this.

[P95Carry]

Stimulates the thought process Kurt - don't it!

[Shotgun Willie]

Yeah it does.

This is something that isn't too far from the realm of possibilities. Remember the bank robbers in L.A.? They were saavy enough to think to wear full protection.

How hard is it for a street thug to buy a level III vest off the internet for his protection against you and I?

It's possible, not sure how probable though. Interesting to talk about at any rate.

[KC135]

Vests are rated by levels.

Head shots are difficult and over rated.

Not something I will lose sleep over.

[Bud White]

I guess i would pratice no more than i all ready do at head shots the likely hood of running into a vest is thin but i preatice for shooting the head anyways

[ExSoldier]

Just imagine - an unavoidable confrontation and the BG is a cut above others - he has a vest!!!

You might not realize this until having been sure you'd made at least two hits - and he is still there in your face. Could almost be too late.

Therefore, do we - should we - train even more for the head shot/shots?

Absolutely! There will be IDPA matches where I will go into the match determined only to take HEAD SHOTS. Lots of my buddies in the club do the same. And a generalized Head shot, isn't enough. Because if your shot shatters a jaw it won't turn off the lights, it'll make a bad situation worse, and the BG will just get more PO'd than he already is! No, the shot has to be cranio-ocular or into the cranial vault. That means the specific target has to be an eyeball OR the central forehead. It's tough, but it can be done even for somebody who's line of work isn't gun related and who doesn't shoot all the time. It can be done from any position or on the move at ranges of seven yards or more if you work at it. I can do it. So remember....

Two to the chest and one to the head, makes sure...they're DEAD!

[ExSoldier]

Vests are rated by levels.

Head shots are difficult and over rated.

Not something I will lose sleep over.

I disagree. Sometimes all you might have is a head shot, especially if the BG is behind hard cover or behind a hostage and if it's my loved one and I'm just a few feet away, I want to make sure I'm behind the trigger and the shot is good. I will take the shot and my wife knows it and wants it that way. We've discussed many if not all the scenarios. I would lose a lot of sleep if I trusted that shot to anybody else.

[Shotgun Willie]

I'm not sure there is a range around here that would allow for such training. Unless it was face to face with the paper and there is nothing wrong with that, I just not sure how I would train for different types of shots and scenerios around here. I hope I am not sounding too ignorant, I did state that I haven't had any combat training and my first experience with handguns was on Labor day. Anyway how would I go about defensive and combat training without dropping $1200+flight or drive up to Thunder Ranch or the likes.

Two to the chest and one to the head, makes sure...they're DEAD!

Is that something that is taught in the high priced schools or do you have to incorporate that into your training on your own?

[OD*]

How do we train for combat situations using a head shot

In my opinion, it's not by shooting stationary targets. Get a cheap radio controlled car, inflate some balloons to the size of an average human head and tie them to the antenna. Have someone stand behind you operating the RC and drive it towards you, heads shots ain't nearly as easy as some would have you think.

[ExSoldier]

Shotgun: http://www.idpa.com Join and find a club that holds matches near you. I've been into IDPA since it's inception in fact, I fired the first live rounds in the first idpa sanctioned match held east of the Mississippi....oh so long ago. To commemorate the moment I ran the course with real JHP combat/defensive ammo. Most IDPA clubs are chock full of some shooter with real world experience: SWAT cops, feds, lawyers (!!), teachers, instructors, soldiers, you name it. I'm a certified SO (Safety Officer) for my club and I am so impressed with the skills of the group. I have NEVER DQ'd a regular shooter or club member for a safety violation.

[ExSoldier]

In my opinion, it's not by shooting stationary targets. Get a cheap radio controlled car, inflate some balloons to the size of an average human head and tie them to the antenna. Have someone stand behind you operating the RC and drive it towards you, heads shots ain't nearly as easy as some would have you think.

I doubt the radio controlled car would last beyond the first couple of shots. Its a precision thing, but not THAT precise! I'll say it again, IDPA offers real world scenarios and a critique and SAFETY. And let's not forget the fellowship of like minded people. Friendship. Unlike IPSC which is the fantasy paradise of the unfettered race gun worth $5000 an IDPA gun has to remain stock. No comps allowed even. No rail lights for low light shooting courses. Gotta hold a surefire Harries style. No stage will have over an 18rd shot expenditure. It's revolver neutral.

[OD*]

I doubt the radio controlled car would last beyond the first couple of shots.

Not if your shootin' at the car no, but that's not the point.

[ExSoldier]

In my opinion, it's not by shooting stationary targets. Get a cheap radio controlled car, inflate some balloons to the size of an average human head and tie them to the antenna. Have someone stand behind you operating the RC and drive it towards you, heads shots ain't nearly as easy as some would have you think.

My IDPA club has a silouhette target mounted on wheels and attached to a rope. Buzzer sounds and a shooter designated will RUN to the rear pulling the target directly to the shooter, who must draw and engage two COM within 2 seconds. Most of the targets exhibit considerable POWDER BURNS. Glocks, Sigs and revolvers tend to do better. Care to guess why?

[Shotgun Willie]

Good idea OD. I have actually seen that used for LEO sniper training in California for moving targets with a hostage. They use one or two balloons as hostages in one color and the BG as another color and the trainer would move around the course to simulate moving bodies. It gave the snipers a hard time to get the clean shot but it worked. The snipers loved it and said it gave them a different feel to their training that a stationary target couldn't give. I forgot all about that. Thanks for the idea.

Thanks for the link Ex. I will have to join after I get my gun.