March 23rd, 2008 03:29 PM
I agree, you simply loaned him the money. You didn't purchase a weapon for him, you simply provided the means for HIM to purchase one. A clear distinction I think.
Originally Posted by morintp
March 23rd, 2008 03:30 PM
You could always fill out the 4473 and give a fake name such as "Strawman Jones" and checking the box saying you had renounced your citizenship.
Or, I think I'd handle it differently. Nod along to the questions from the UC, then step aside to have a little private chat. You : "No I don't wnat your money, I want something else" Him : " What ?" You : "I'd like your help on getting my FORM4 through the system, it seems to be stuck"
March 23rd, 2008 04:04 PM
Wow,I didn't know that this simple event would bring about so many responses.I thought maybe it was a unique happening,not something that is going on all across the country or has happened in other places.All those agents need to go find themselves a honest job and stop messing with honest men.They are trying to make crooks out of all of us.sj
Last edited by sjones; March 23rd, 2008 at 05:30 PM.
March 23rd, 2008 04:32 PM
No, they are simply trying to root out the crooks that hide among honest men.
Originally Posted by sjones
March 23rd, 2008 06:38 PM
A marginal "sting" resulted in a pawnshop owner I knew very well being sent to Fed prison for 18 mos and lost his business for making a firearm sale to a person with (supposedly) full knowledge that the firearm was purchased for yet another individual who could not qualify to purchase. The sting was worked through a CI that recieved reduction in charge. They "worked" the pawn broker for months, establishing a credibility between the CI and the broker.
Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs
I knew the pawnbroker well, I think he was an honest man. BUT there might have been more to it than met my eye. On face value, the BATF just slicked an otherwise honest man into a questionable deal - BUT, as I told him after it all hit the fan - I wouldn't even have sold my mom a gun knoing it was for someone else.
The Pawnbroker made a very unwise decision to try to help "a nice guy".
Just thought I'd relate this as even people who are supposedly astute and intelegent can have their better judgement clouded by a slick operator.
"There is no problem that cannot be solved through the proper use of high explosives"
G. Alan Foster
March 23rd, 2008 07:03 PM
This reminds me of that video that was going around for awhile where the police (or ATF agents, whatever) were "purchasing" a gun from a guy at a gun show in MI (was it?).
They had a hidden camera and the "buyer" was saying, "Yeah, but I have a record, can my buddy buy the gun for me?"
The dealer said, "Yeah, but he has to fill out the paperwork and if anyone asks he's buying the gun for himself, okay?"
I couldn't help but cringe and think, "Oh boy, you are going to jail for a long time."
I don't mind the police/ATF/whoever/insert-initials-here doing that because it does keep the idiots who sell illegal guns accountable.
What's regrettable is that there are people who do this kind of crap in the first place, and that it gets plastered all over the news.
And no, I would NEVER, under any circumstance, buy a gun for someone I didn't know. Even for someone I did know, as a gift, I would just give them the money and tell them to do the paperwork and purchasing themselves.
March 23rd, 2008 07:09 PM
OK, let's get real here. Use the tools you have at hand to make the deal legally.
I find a 'don't really need another 1911 but it looks great and what a buy' pistol for $500. An hour later (okay, why am I there an hour after spending my cash?) I find a nice holster for it and try it on. Nice looking lady walks up and says 'is that a gun or are you happy to see me?' She offers $650 for it. "I know she wants it." I stand to make a cool 30% markup in one day, and I bought it because it was such a great deal.
Hellooo!! I am at a gun show and about to pocket $150 profit! How hard would it be to ask her to join me at the background check table? No 4473, just her driver's license. "Hi Gorgeous, let me get the check?" 10 minutes later, she avoids a three-day wait and I go shopping for another gun with $645 in my pocket.
pardon the puns, it's been a happy Easter weekend
Last edited by FLSquirrelHunter; March 23rd, 2008 at 07:26 PM.
Reason: yet another poor attempt at humor
March 23rd, 2008 07:59 PM
Doesn't matter if they are undercover ATFs or not, I won't buy any weapons for anyone outside my immediate family.
Robert John Stewart, The Lost King of Scotland
March 23rd, 2008 09:01 PM
I had a friend that got hassled by the BATF when he purchased a couple of guns at his personal table from a guy for a good price. He was not an FFL dealer but marked them up $25 and put them on the table. It was a BATF sting and they put him in a world of crap for a couple of years. If you don't have an FFL NEVER sell a gun for profit at a gun shot that you just purchased. They will bust you for dealing without a license.
Life member NRA since 1983
I carry a Kimber Ultra Carry II in a Crossbreed SuperTuck. My wife carries a Walther PPS .40 w/Crossbreed holster.
March 23rd, 2008 09:18 PM
You must also watch out for the deal that's too good to be true. If you know that the price you are paying is way below retail and if the gun was stolen not too long ago (this time period is a gray area), you are automatically guilty of receiving stolen property.
Originally Posted by FLSquirrelHunter
Last edited by KenInColo; March 23rd, 2008 at 09:18 PM.
An armed populace are called citizens.
An unarmed populace are called subjects.
March 23rd, 2008 10:02 PM
Good point. Don't know if this works for other states, but we have a website to check serial numbers for stolen property.
Originally Posted by KenInColo
March 23rd, 2008 11:57 PM
been to plenty of gun shows and never been approched or any events
posted early, so any purchues are from ffl dealer only and for myself.
my records have always been clean and green and i plan i keeping
it that way. took a trip to the bahamas a few years back and was
warned to beware of the talking bushes(leo trying to sell tourist drugs).
NO THANKS, same at some gun shows if i"m reading these posts right.
(SHERIFF BUFORD T. JUSTICE) "what the hell is
the world coming too"
NRA LIFE MEMBER
U.S. ARMY FT.SILL, OKLA.
March 24th, 2008 01:11 AM
1943 - 2009
I used to own a gun shop. The first couple of years getting established were pretty lean, cash flow wise. One day, a middle aged guy and a young woman came into the shop, and after looking around, the guy asked to see a S&W M57 .41 Magnum I had in the showcase. He played with it for about 10 minutes and decided he would buy it.
I took out the 4473, and told him I needed his driver's license, then he said his lady friend would fill out the paperwork. I asked him why, and he said it was going to be her gun anyway. I should mention here that from the time they came in, she was a totally disinterested spectator, she never once looked at or handled the gun, or even talked to the guy about it.
So I said, sorry, I can't make this sale. He said OK, and they left.
I found out later that these two were a BATF sting team from the regional office, not part of the local BATF office.
When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
And go to your God like a soldier.
March 24th, 2008 01:47 AM
I wonder if anyone ever reported this Gun Show guy to the local authorities? Might be mildly amusing.
ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!
"A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
March 24th, 2008 05:55 AM
Many, Many years ago when I had an FFL the BATF agent would come to a small dealer without much inventory and get him to order an expensive semi-custom weapon and pay in advance. His paperwork would be in order and all would be fine until he came to pick up the weapon. He would have a guy with him and as you start to hand the weapon over he would tell you that the gun was actually for his "brother in law" who can't buy the weapon himself. So now the dealer either hands back the purchase price and eats an expensive weapon or takes a chance on getting arrested.
Originally Posted by SIXTO
That was bad enought but a gentleman came into my shop and purchased 2 cheap pistols and told me he would be back in two weeks to buy 2 more. During the course of the week I saw him do the same thing in 6 other dealer's shops. As we lived on the border I assumed he was selling weapons into Mexico. I reported him to the BATF and I was asked "Have you actually seen him selling them in Mexico?" No. "Then I suggest you mind your own business and not report things you can't prove!" Turned out later he was working with BATF setting up dealers with the above straw purchases. I am still convinced that they covered for him so he would help them. Note, I said he was helping, not that he was an agent.
"Lots of bullets means lots of chances to make use of expert marksmanship skills" --- Gecko45
"Some people ask: shoot to maim, or shoot to kill? I say, empty the chamber and let the good Lord decide." - Deputy Garcia (Reno 911)
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