This is a discussion on Just A Warning within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; If someone buys a gun for someone like that they deserve to get caught. Not that I agree with the BATF at all... It should ...
If someone buys a gun for someone like that they deserve to get caught.
Not that I agree with the BATF at all...
It should be a drive-through.
I'll take a Ruger, some Absolut and a box of Cohiba's, please!
"Thank you, pay at the second window."
I never sell a firearm to anyone unless they have been a friend for years, without going through a gun dealer.
Sure, I know I can legally, but I want the transfer through a licensed dealer to make sure, there is no question, it was legal. It’s just not worth it.
I don't think I would sell one of my guns to a complete stranger, if though it is legal. I don't like departing with toys anyway.
To be illegal it would have to be a straw purchase, a specific purchase to immediately turn it over to the BATF agent. (Right??)
This will probably make someone mad. So be it.
The BATFE could do the exact same scam, I mean, sting using their own people instead of trying to induce ordinarily law abiding citizens to commit crimes they would not think of doing on their own. This is BS and deep. I know Sixto has experience with this sort of thing but I still think it is a distortion of the purpose and intent of the law to do it this way.
As I said above, there are ways to bust crooked dealers without introducing Joe Citizen to a life of crime. The BATFE uses informants and other operatives who could pose as legitimate buyers to catch crooked dealers. Joe Citizen doesn't have to be involved.
But wait a minute! Maybe it's not just about catching crooked dealers. What if it was intended to be harassment of Joe Citizens everywhere who like to attend gun shows and own and shoot firearms? What if the BATFE is operating under an agenda of making it more and more difficult to enjoy firearm ownership? Aren't our jails full enough and our court systems clogged up enough with dangerous thugs without adding Joe Citizen to the mix?
It's been proven that LE will stoop to amazing lows to make a case stick and to cut the amount of time it takes to effect an arrest that will get a conviction. But this is a copout and a con! And while it may be legal, it borders on unethical and amoral.
I understand why a deep undercover officer would need to lie to keep his cover intact, and might even have to "go along" with a crime being committed in order to catch the "big fish", I don't think undercover operations at a gun show should or do fall under this category of risk taking.
The agent at a gun show is not at risk at all, as all he has to do if caught is show his badge and local LE backs off, if they don't already know about the operation. This is just another example of government agents running roughshod over citizens under the guise of enforcing the law. I am sure there are good agents out there who don't approve of this approach, but they are powerless to stop it.
I don't buy the argument that any of this is necessary at gun shows, but I don't really have much say in the matter either. Other than contact his Congressman and complain, there isn't a lot Joe Citizen can do to stop this type of harrassment by those agencies that want to push their secret agendas.
Also in a "John" sting, the prostitute doesn't seek out the John, the John goes looking for the prostitute which he does find, allbeit conveniently. There is a big difference in the modus operandi.
Laws that forbid the carrying of arms ... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes ... they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. Thomas Jefferson
Ok, been following this and just thought of somthing. I was in a shop a few years ago and found a G26 LNIB fro $399. Dailed up a buddy who was looking for one(I'd trust this man with my life, money, and wife!!). He said he wanted it so I grabbed it stating to the dealer I was buying this for a friend, did that make a difference. He said no so I filled out the paperwork in my name. My friend reimbursed me for the purchase price and I wrote out a bill of sale and have a copy like I do with all private sales. What that ok?
In God we trust, everyone else keep your hands where I can see them.
Rights are like muscles: If you don't excersise them they slowly disappear.
What I would have done is put some money on the gun to hold it and then your friend could reimburse you and he can fill out the paperwork and you are off the hook
"Brains before Bullets"
The BATFE has turned this into a stupid maze leaving us always questioning whether or not we might be breaking the law. That, in itself, might be one of the intended outcomes... "The law isn't meant to be understood, it's meant to be feared."
I've been to a few shows in recent months and each time I was looking for two things: A ruger single six for my Dad, and a Baby Eagle 9mm for a friend of mine who desperately wants one. Until this thread I thought nothing of it, and would've picked up either one without hesitation.
The facts are indisputable. There is more data supporting the benefits of Conceal Carry than there is supporting global warming. If you choose ignorance, in light of all the evidence, in order to bolster your irrational fear of guns, you are a greater threat to society than any gun owner.
Personally I fear a goverment out of control much more than someone buying a gun illegally. I also wonder if our LE friends on here will be so eager to defend all this when their LE buddies show up at their door to confiscate their guns one day?
"Those who would give up essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety" -Benjamin Franklin-
NRA Endowment Life Member
First I will qualify my remarks with:
I don't trust the BATFE as far as I can throw one of their agents!
I have watched them for sometime & they are the WORST managed law enforcement entity in this country! Their own rules (or lack thereof...) are confusing for even the most law abiding to comply.
Their testing policies are made up as they go a long. See some of the recent stupidity with a rifle malfunction that turned into an 'illegal transfer', when a malfunctioning semi...double tapped!
My first direct interaction with the BATFE goes back to the Richmond Va gun shows. When I 1st started seeing their agents working, they were at the gun shows making a few arrests. They were on hand to intercept any felons who attempted to buy firearms. What would happen is the felon would come up to the gun dealer & try to purchase a firearm. The dealer would have them fill out the forms & them take them to the on-site state police computer for the 'instant' check. when they were rejected the BATFE & Va State police would make an arrest!.....GOOD FOR THEM! Great job getting another miscreant off the street for a few hours.......
THEN their tactics changed.......
At a few of the Richmond area shows they started using some unethical tactics. The BATFE would intercept the firearms forms before they went to the Va State Police for the 'instant check'. (this is illegal!) They would then send out Richmond, Henrico & Chesterfield county police officers to the homes of the buyers. They would knock on the door & if someone answered they would ask them if the knew 'so & so' was buying a gun at the show today? If no one answered they would go next door & ask their neighbors if they knew 'so & so' was buying a gun today?......The BATFE got slapped on the back of the hand for this.....There should have been some firings & arrests!
As to the original poster's scenario....I would have responded LOUDLY with a "NO, I'M NOT GOING TO BUY A GUN FOR YOU!" This would serve two purposes:
1) Make sure they is NO misunderstanding about my un-willingness to buy him a firearm. This way would provide plenty of witnesses for ME, should he try to pull anything!
2) It will also blow his cover & keep some other poor shlub from being caught in a web. (I'm sorry if this upsets some here, but again I don't trust this agency AT ALL!)
(here is some of their other schnanagins:)
Thugs of the US Government
A vote is like a rifle, its usefulness is based on the character of the user -T Roosevelt
If you carry a gun, some will call you paranoid. If I carry, what do I have to be paranoid about? -C Smith
An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it. -J Cooper
Watch out for Mayor Bloomberg at the gunshows too.
It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no distinctly native American criminal class except Congress.
- Pudd'nhead Wilson's New Calendar (Mark Twain)
So what happens if he approaches a local plainclothes officer that plays along? Does the first one to get the cuffs on win?
"Lord, help me to be the person my dog thinks I am."
If you answered "yes" to question 12A on the form 4473, then you violated Federal law.
Question 12A asks: "Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s) on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you".
This dealer took a huge risk by making this sale. He had no way of knowing if your friend could legally purchase this gun. Since you already told him you weren't buying the gun for yourself, as soon as he saw that you answered "yes" to question 12A (swearing that you were buying it for yourself), he should have stopped the sale.
Is this dealer still in business?
When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
And go to your God like a soldier.
What's the one thing we always hear from the libs regarding guns? "We have to find a way to close these 'gun show' loop holes."
Perhaps the libs already in office are leaning on BATFE to do operate these stings so they can have 'ammunition' (no pun intended), in the from of actual violations, to bring before state and federal legislatures in order to get the changes (read restrictions) they're after.
Heck, most libs, including Obama, want gun shows completely abolished.
An armed populace are called citizens.
An unarmed populace are called subjects.