Accidental Shooting Incident

This is a discussion on Accidental Shooting Incident within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Wouldn't shooting AT the "armed assailants" have the same effect? Originally Posted by A1C Lickey Now the example given for this was- you're on a ...

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Thread: Accidental Shooting Incident

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array tanksoldier's Avatar
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    Wouldn't shooting AT the "armed assailants" have the same effect?


    Quote Originally Posted by A1C Lickey
    Now the example given for this was- you're on a patrol on the far side of base, and armed assailants start coming over the fence. You try to radio in but your radio is out of commision. Three shots fired rapidly into the air will hopefully get someone's attention.

    A1C Lickey
    "I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array A1C Lickey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tanksoldier
    Wouldn't shooting AT the "armed assailants" have the same effect?
    I never understood that myself, and to be honest I had always planned to fire my three rapid shots at the BGs, the only time I could think of it having any useful effect is at night, where someone might see the tracers.

    A1C Lickey

  4. #18
    Member Array LMarshall73's Avatar
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    http://www.wftv.com/sports/5016806/detail.html
    http://www.wftv.com/news/5022304/detail.html
    http://www.wftv.com/news/5022819/detail.html
    http://www.wftv.com/news/5019284/detail.html
    http://www.wftv.com/news/5027339/detail.html
    It will be interesting to see what FDLE discloses at the end of the investigation.

    P.S. Not sure if you know this or not LMarshall73, but less than lethal rubber rounds still have the capability of killing. Placement and quantity are important when using these rounds.
    Yes, I am aware that rubber rounds can be deadly, hence my use of the term "less-lethal" instead of "non-lethal." Some of the initial reports indicated the use of rubber ammo. It appears after reading the content of the above linked pages, that was not the case.

  5. #19
    Senior Member Array rachilders's Avatar
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    While it may start a flame war among some of us, I'd like to offer this slightly different scenario to the shooting and see what response I get. Lets say all the details of the shooting (as known) were the same EXCEPT for the fact the shooter of the undercover cop was not another LEO but a civilian with a carry permit. So far most of the replies have said, essentially, that the undercover agent brought the shooting on himself and that the uniformed LEO, while possibly a bit quick on the trigger, was justified in shooting the other LEO.

    Now, lets say the undercover agent had been killed by a lawfully armed civilian rather than by another LEO, would the response still be the same? Color me guilty of having a single standard (as in not giving our boys in blue the benefit of the doubt) for everyone that carries a deadly weapon, but I somehow doubt the response would be the same as it was by the local police. Would anyone here like to argue the point that the civilian shooter of the unfortunate undercover LEO would probably still be deep in a holding cell waiting for his next interrogation as we speak. My personal belief is a bad shooting is a bad shooting, and a LEO should be bound to not only the same laws as the rest of us but actually held to an higher standard because of his position of authority and training. Am I wrong to expect more from an individual who has the power of life and death, can lock me away at his personal discretion and who is suppose to protect and defend us common citizens from the lawless and miscarriages of justice?
    "... Americans... we want a safe home, to keep the money we make and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array tanksoldier's Avatar
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    If changing the dead individual from cop to CCWer is all we do to modify the scenario, nothing changes.

    If a cop shot a CCWer who he reasonably believed was threatening the lives of citizens, it would NOT be a bad shoot. It would be a good shoot, even if it turned out the cop was wrong. How many times has it been posted here "See a gun, shoot to kill" or some variation thereof?

    If what causes the cop to ID the CCWer as a threat is the fact that the CCWer fired 3 warning shots in close proximity to a crowd, the CCWer deserves what he gets... and the gene pool is improved.

    Incidentally, you have a funny idea of what a LEO is and can do... they can't do the things you seem to think they can, and their job isn't what you seem to think it is. Holding them to a higher standard than you hold yourself is also... a poor idea. The LEO wants to go home to spouse and kids as much as you do.
    "I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tanksoldier
    If a cop shot a CCWer who he reasonably believed was threatening the lives of citizens, it would NOT be a bad shoot.
    Ditto. The number one cause of death, worldwide? Stupidity.

    If you, as a CCW, fire 3 "warning shots", they really should be the first or last three in your weapon, COM, at the identified/validated threat.

  8. #22
    Senior Member Array rachilders's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tanksoldier
    If changing the dead individual from cop to CCWer is all we do to modify the scenario, nothing changes.

    If a cop shot a CCWer who he reasonably believed was threatening the lives of citizens, it would NOT be a bad shoot. It would be a good shoot, even if it turned out the cop was wrong. How many times has it been posted here "See a gun, shoot to kill" or some variation thereof?

    If what causes the cop to ID the CCWer as a threat is the fact that the CCWer fired 3 warning shots in close proximity to a crowd, the CCWer deserves what he gets... and the gene pool is improved.

    Incidentally, you have a funny idea of what a LEO is and can do... they can't do the things you seem to think they can, and their job isn't what you seem to think it is. Holding them to a higher standard than you hold yourself is also... a poor idea. The LEO wants to go home to spouse and kids as much as you do.
    There seems to be some confusion as to my original question and you've got it backwards. I said that the change to the incident would be if the dead man were still an undercover cop (LEO not in uniform) but the shooter was a civilian with a ccw RATHER than a uniformed LEO. I'll expand a bit by saying the civilian was at the game, saw an individual NOT in uniform firing into the air and pointing his gun at a crowd of teenagers. Our civilian ccw holder determines it's a crazy person with a gun and decides to take him out before anyone (who knows, maybe the guy already has shot someone) gets hurt. As it turns out, the "nut" is an undercover cop, but how was the civilian to know that? Is he suppose to call out a warning? Is the civilian (or LEO for that matter) required to find out the potential BG's intention before firing? Sounds like the scenerio from the news article with the exception that the civilian in my version was actually a uniformed cop.

    As far as what a LEO can do, I'm well aware. I have numerous friends who are LEO's as well a half dozen family members in LE. I almost became one myself, but opted for a career in the military instead. I hear on an almost daily basis from one of them what they deal with on the job and, sometimes, a few questionable things they do to deal with it. Just because you have a badge and a gun doesn't make you a knight in shinning armor like Sir Galahad. They have emotions like everyone else, they have good & bad days like everyone else and they sometimes take out their frustration and anger on the people around them. They should be held accountable for their action, both good or bad, and due to their extraordinary position of power and ability to affect our lives, they should be held to higher standard. It's a given (just ask anyone in LE or in the legal profession) that when it comes down to your word against a LEO, they will be given the benefit of the doubt. A hypothetical situation... A police officer having a bad day doesn't like the car you drive and pulls you over, say's you were driving recklessly and gives you a ticket. If you complain too much he can arrest you. If you resist, you can find yourself looking like you were run down by a truck or even worse, with a bullet in your gut. Who will the powers that be listen to when it comes down to he said/he says?? As I stated, LEO's should be held to a higher standard due to the power they have over the rest of us. A cop volunteers for the job, just like a soldier in the army. He knows the risks that go with the job and willingly agrees to accept them. Unlike the soldier, however, a cop can quit any time he decides he's had enough or the risk isn't worth it. Just imagine what would happen to a soldier or marine who said he was quitting because he was being sent on a mission that could be dangerous! However, look at the recent defection of over 250 LEO's in New Orleans during Katrina if you want a example of policemen just walking away from their jobs when the going got too tough. Luckily, the majority decided to stay and do their jobs, but it was still sad to watch police officers on the news channel pushing grocery carts full of looted stuff from Wal-Marts and to hear how Cadillac's stolen from local dealers were found as far away as Chicago in the possession of NOLA LEO's.
    Last edited by rachilders; October 4th, 2005 at 02:08 PM.
    "... Americans... we want a safe home, to keep the money we make and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane

  9. #23
    Senior Member Array tanksoldier's Avatar
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    It would still be a good shoot. Might take a while for the legal wheels to turn, and it certainly wouldn't be fun.

    People who hold anyone, LEOs, firefighters, priests, whatever to a higher standard are really holding themselves to a lower standard.
    "I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

  10. #24
    Senior Member Array rachilders's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tanksoldier
    ...People who hold anyone, LEOs, firefighters, priests, whatever to a higher standard are really holding themselves to a lower standard.
    With great power comes great responsibility and accountability. Ask any commander in the military... LEO's, politicians, doctors and anyone else with the power to permanently alter our lives (or even end them) should be no different. When you give any group authority over another, greater accountability MUST go with that power to help offset the potential abuse of that power. Power without accountability ultimately leads to choas and annarchy. Look at Soviet Russia during Stalin or Germany under Hitler for examples of states where the police had absolute authority over their citizens without accountability to them for their actions.
    "... Americans... we want a safe home, to keep the money we make and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane

  11. #25
    Senior Member Array tanksoldier's Avatar
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    Nobody is suggesting that LEOs or other officials with authority shouldn't be accountable for their actions under that authoriy. In most jurisdictions commiting a crime "under color of authority" carries a stiffer penalty than otherwise... as it should be. I'm aying a LEO doesn't have as much authority as you think he has, or more precisely he doesn't have that much more authority than YOU have, and that his job isn't what you seem to think it is.

    Did you know you have ALMOST the same power of arrest as a LEO? It's a very slim margin, and varies from state to state. All my Criminal Justice classes dealt with California law, so that's the example I'll use. In California the only signifigant difference between a private person's power of arrest and a LEO's is that a LEO can arrest someone on another's word or on evidence (probable cause), while a private citizen must see the crime commited. Private citizens can even make arrests based on warrants... bail enforcement agents do it all the time.

    As citizens and CHL holders we also have authority... and responsibility. Your rights under the Second Ammendment weren't given to you so you can hide under a rock when trouble rears it's head. They were given to you as the ultimate defender of all other rights, to be the protector of our nation and it's people when other protectors are unavailable. Legally you are the militia... as it every able-bodied male between 16 and 45 according to Federal law... and if a woman wants to join the club that's fine by me.

    Whether it's Redcoats at Lexington, a rapist in a college dorm or misguided LEOs in New Orleans there comes a time when average Joe citizen must look trouble in the eye and say "Not today"... otherwise trouble wins.
    "I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

  12. #26
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    Well said Tanksoldier.
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

  13. #27
    Member Array XD40's Avatar
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    More information has now come out on the incident at the football game. One cicilian was shot in the stomach (they are not saying by who) and some photos of the incident have been released. The photos show the undercover at one point with his gun pointing down at soemthing/someone out of frame and in another he has a man/kid by the back neck of his shirt in one hand and gun in the other seemingly next to the kids head.
    FYI, UCF has said today that all cops in the praking lot will be in uniform the rest of the season.

  14. #28
    Senior Member Array tanksoldier's Avatar
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    DUH! Really, THAT'S who/ what is responsible for this cluster... the idiot who knew that there was going to be 3 different agencies and RESERVE officers at the event and expected them to be able to coordinate and recognize each other in a crisis... and decided to add plainclothes officers in the mix on top of everything else. They were just assuming everythng would go OK probably because nothing serious had ever happened in the past... but it only has to happen once.

    As for the wounded bystander I'll bet it's either an over penetration or miss from the responding officer. He was faced with a crisis in a crowd... the shot he took was probably his only option.

    EDIT: Just read the latest. Jenkins apparently shot the guy in the stomach after he was grabbed from behind. In a wrestling match with a gun out you're justified in shooting your opponent, because if he wins he'll have your gun. Also, from the pictures Jenkins is pretty obviously a police officer to me. He still shouldn't have fired warning shots, and the officer responding still seems justified in the decision he had to make... the real culprits seem to be the morons who set this operation up in the first place. They're talking about reviewing their tailgate policy, requiring persons with an open container to show ID (isn't that already required) and a buncha other stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by XD40
    FYI, UCF has said today that all cops in the praking lot will be in uniform the rest of the season.
    Last edited by tanksoldier; October 5th, 2005 at 12:57 PM.
    "I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

  15. #29
    Senior Member Array rachilders's Avatar
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    This was on my news page this morning...

    NEW ORLEANS - At least one police officer repeatedly punched a 64-year-old man accused of public intoxication, and another officer assaulted an Associated Press Television News producer as a cameraman taped the confrontations.

    There will be a criminal investigation, and three New Orleans Police Department officers will be suspended Sunday, arrested and charged with simple battery, Capt. Marlon Defillo said.

    "We have great concern with what we saw this morning," Defillo said after he and about a dozen other high-ranking police department officials watched the APTN footage Sunday. "It's a troubling tape, no doubt about it. ... This department will take immediate action."

    The assaults come as the department, long plagued by allegations of brutality and corruption, struggles with the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina and the resignation last month of Police Superintendent Eddie Compass.

    The APTN tape shows an officer hitting the man at least four times in the head Saturday night as he stood outside a bar. The suspect, Robert Davis, appeared to resist, twisting and flailing as he was dragged to the ground by four officers. Another officer then kneed Davis and punched him twice. Davis was face-down on the sidewalk with blood streaming down his arm and into the gutter.

    Meanwhile, an officer ordered APTN producer Rich Matthews and the cameraman to stop recording. When Matthews held up his credentials and explained he was working, the officer grabbed the producer, leaned him backward over a car, jabbed him in the stomach and unleashed a profanity-laced tirade.

    "I've been here for six weeks trying to keep ... alive. ... Go home!" shouted the officer, who later identified himself as S.M. Smith.

    ...(snip)

    Many officers deserted their posts in the days after Katrina, and some were accused of joining in the looting that broke out. At least two committed suicide.

    Conditions have improved - officers now have beds on a cruise ship - but they don't have private rooms and are still working five, 12-hour days.

    Compass, the police superintendent, resigned Sept. 27. Despite more than 10 years of reform efforts dating to before he took office, police were dogged by allegations of brutality and corruption.

    On Friday, state authorities said they were investigating allegations that New Orleans police broke into a dealership and made off with nearly 200 cars - including 41 new Cadillacs - as the storm closed in.

    Police said Davis, 64, of New Orleans, was booked on public intoxication, resisting arrest, battery on a police officer and public intimidation.


    This is the type of abuse of power and authority I was referring to earlier. I know while it will be called an "isolated incident" it still happened and, luckily for the "civilians", was recorded on film. If it hadn't been for the news camera being present, the whole thing would have been blown off as a drunk who fell while resisting arrest and that would have been the end of it. As it is, we could find ourselves with another Rodney King situation. Also, I cut the article a bit short when copying it here to save space, but if the report was correct, there were also several Federal marshal types involved along with the local LEO's. This is also the police department that was recently placed under a cease and desist order by a judge for confiscating guns from law abiding citizens. Remember the footage of the CHIP jumping the old lady and dragging her out of her house when she showed her revolver? I wonder why the police there felt so threatened by the average citizen that they decided they needed to disarm them???

    BTW, why do LEO's refer to non LEO's as "civilians"? In my 20 plus years in the military, I was under the impression that the only people who were NOT civilians were those of us actually in the military. When did the police become members of the armed forces and if they are, why aren't they subject to military rules of engagement and the UCMJ?
    Last edited by rachilders; October 9th, 2005 at 05:04 PM.
    "... Americans... we want a safe home, to keep the money we make and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane

  16. #30
    Senior Member Array rachilders's Avatar
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    I'm somewhat disappointed that I haven't received any replies to my last post. Has the bloom gone from the rose?
    "... Americans... we want a safe home, to keep the money we make and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane

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