Accidental Shooting Incident - Page 3

Accidental Shooting Incident

This is a discussion on Accidental Shooting Incident within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; A rose by any other departmental designation would smell as pungently. Why can't they call us by our correct name, citizens. Some of us aren't ...

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  1. #31
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    A rose by any other departmental designation would smell as pungently. Why can't they call us by our correct name, citizens. Some of us aren't quite civil. Civilians seems like sheeple. The law enforcement specialists are increasingly military. The military is being asked to keep law and order. The reserve is fighting. Don't ask, don't tell.

    Just don't fire into the air. The great divide has always been between the uniform and the evil doers (to borrow a Bushism) in civil garb. Eliot Ness was one of the earliest G men in plain clothes to break the mold. Now, the uniforms are desert camo, and civil garb involves a towel around the head.
    Last edited by gunthorp; October 11th, 2005 at 12:41 AM.
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95


  2. #32
    Senior Member Array SOLOLUCKY's Avatar
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    RACHILDERS,
    I agree yer post kinda got off on a tangent arguing over terminology. I hafta say us as ccw holders doing what happened in fla would end us in jail for a long time. prolly beat up by the cop you shots buddies at the station after you fell down the steps a dozen times...clumsy perp. the state prosecutor would label you a vigilante and the jury would only see that you shot a cop...GUILTY!!!
    on all charges. in ohio you better be dam sure who you are against when you come to someones aid. if i saw you getting stomped to a greasy spot and i tried to help you and shot the beater. then come to find out you started the fight, i'm screwed. GUILTY as charged again. they beat it into our heads in the class these ideals we had to live by.

    I agree 1000% in yer "they should be held to a higher standard" cuz they are specially trained experts (supposedly). i do not doubt that they wanna go home just like we do but to further my chances of going home at night i ain't a cop! dont want that job but am glad someone does.
    police dept's have the deep pockets of the city and as was said earlier there word has more weight than a civilian/citizen/regular person. so the story of the dead undercover cop would never be told except by the people he was "hassling" and do ya think they are gonna be any help to you...doubtful. they prolly wopuld say they knew he was a cop and still fought with him..then the prosecutor would respond :se they knew he was a cop. why didn't you before you shot him mr ccw holder?"

    GUILTY AS CHARGED would be my answer to yer hypothetical scenario. and if not guilty in the criminal court the cops family would take all yer stuff and you'd live under a bridge the rest of yer life.
    R1

    This is mine. That is yours.

    Lets keep it that way.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Array rachilders's Avatar
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    I may not exactly have used your words , but the point is well taken. There is a double standard between LEO's and non LEO's whether it's admitted or not and in most cases the man in uniform will come out on top in a "it's your word against mine" situation. American law is based on the concept that a person is guilty until proven innocent, but when it comes to most LE agencies, it's just the opposite... the LEO is always right and you must prove yourself innocent if there is a conflict involving "them" v "us". Just think of all the recent cases where suspects had the crap beat out of them (or worse) and the only reason the true story came out was because there was someone with a camera present. As for the incident in NOLA, if those LEO's would do what they did with the streets full of people and a camera present, I shudder to think what happens in the out of the way places and dark alleys when nobody is looking!

    LEO's are under a lot of stress, especially in the many crime ridden urban areas, but it's no excuse to use and abuse your authority. For every bad cop there are hundreds of good ones who are just doing their jobs the best way they can. However, as an old saying goes, it only takes one bad apple to spoil the whole barrel. If there is a "bad apple" in the bunch it needs to be removed, not covered up, protected or made excuses for. When the good guys try to cover up the mistakes of the few bad ones just because he's one of their own, it makes them ALL look bad.
    "... Americans... we want a safe home, to keep the money we make and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane

  4. #34
    Senior Member Array CombatEffective's Avatar
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    The "color of law" applies in every jurisdiction as it is part of federal civil rights law that carried criminal penalty. It is not restricted to LE. It applies to any person acting (or assreting legal authority even it doesn't exist) under the color of law conspiring with another to violate a person's constitutional rights.
    Shooters' Legacy

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  5. #35
    Senior Member Array rachilders's Avatar
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    Now that we've digressed from my original question for a while, I'd like to present it once again for any further debate. This question would still seem to be very applicable to the readers of this forum since many, if not most, of its members either have carry permits or carry anyway, whether they have them or not.

    Lets say the circumstances of the shooting at the ball game and resulting death of the undercover LEO all remain the same. Now, if we made a single change, making the shooter of the undercover LEO a civilian with a legal CCW rather than another LEO, how do you think the local police and the press would have reacted? Would the police still be calling it an "unfortunate accident" with the local press keeping a rather low profile or would they all be crying this is the exact reason more gun control is needed, calling it a case of another gun "nut" taking the law into his own hands, resulting in the needless death of a LEO just trying to perform his duty? As individuals who own and carry weapons, it's something to consider if we ever find ourselves in a situation were we must decide whether to intervene in an incident involving unknown third parties. Are things really the way they appear or is there more to the story and we may be getting ourselves involved in something we shouldn't?
    "... Americans... we want a safe home, to keep the money we make and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane

  6. #36
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    ra - if we are casual bystanders and probably also not been on the scene for long - indeed this problem of situational ID is a biggie and worrysome.

    We must not jump to hasty conclusions but of course time is not on our side. I doubt there is any hard and fast formula for achieving a reliable rationale and perhaps all we can ever try and employ is ''best judgement''.

    Erring on the side of discretion is going to be our best protection probably but would it always be the thing to do when the lives of others appear threatened. Maybe we hold back until and unless bullets are likely to come our way?

    We are potentially in an invidious position, catch 22 headaches. Serious stuff.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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