Accidental Shooting Incident

This is a discussion on Accidental Shooting Incident within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; There was an incident over the weekend that while not strictly a CCW issue, it is a relevant gun issue. The facts are not all ...

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Thread: Accidental Shooting Incident

  1. #1
    Member Array XD40's Avatar
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    Accidental Shooting Incident

    There was an incident over the weekend that while not strictly a CCW issue, it is a relevant gun issue. The facts are not all clear as of this writing but what I can summarize is this:
    An undercover University of Central Florida officer was patrolling the parking lot of the footbal game to curb underage drinking. He became involved in some sort of disturbance or scuffle with an unknown number of revellers. At some point, he drew his weapon and fired one or more shots in to the air. A uniformed LEO in the same parking lot drew his weapon and not identifying the UC as a cop, shot him dead, 3 shots in the back (allegedly).
    There are more questions than answers right now about the entire incident but one that everyone seems to agree on is, why did he fire in to the air? If he was in danger, was this a warning shot? Police are trained to NOT fire warning shot (no such thing as a warning shot they say, and I agree). There are rumors that he turned and fired at the LEO after the LEO fired his first shot but no one knows for sure right now.
    It appears to me to be an unfortunate incident where a perhaps under trained officer, reacted in an inaapropriate manner to a stressful situation and a LEO, thinking he was firing on people in the crowd (reasonable under the circumstances) stopped the threat.
    Last edited by XD40; September 27th, 2005 at 05:54 PM. Reason: Spelling, fat fingers

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    Senior Member Array CombatEffective's Avatar
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    There are a lot of questions still unanswered. A person in the crowd was hit int he leg or so the reports say. Some reports say that the undercover cop was being pelted by beer bottles from a large group of folks.

    I don't understand why they had undercover cops out looking for underage drinkers. They usually find me and announce themselves as such even when I'm uniform.
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    XD - this from a thread on THR -
    If as reported, sounds like stupid act by one officer, and a "what would you have done?" act by second officer.

    Fla. College Police Officer Fatally Shot by Another Officer
    Report: Undercover Officer May Have Been Trying to Break Up Tailgate Party
    http://www.officer.com/article/artic...ion=2&id=26049


    A university police officer working with the state to curb underage drinking was shot to death by an Orlando police officer outside the Citrus Bowl Saturday as fans were arriving for a football game, authorities said.

    Mario Jenkins, a canine officer working with Division of Alcoholic Beverages and Tobacco agents, was killed, said University of Central Florida Police Sgt. Troy Williamson.

    Williamson said Jenkins was wearing street clothes. He would not talk about the circumstances of the shooting.

    "You've got about 50 police officers and beverage agents who are in complete shock at this point," Williamson said.

    Witnesses told the Orlando Sentinel that the incident started when an undercover officer tried to break up a tailgate party. When he encountered resistance, they said, he fired three shots into the air. An Orlando Police officer saw the man with the gun and shot him several times, the newspaper said.

    Authorities believed a third person was involved, said Barbara Jones, spokeswoman for the Orlando Police Department. Jones refused to say whether the person was injured.

    The shooting occurred before a game between University of Central Florida and Marshall University, which UCF won.

    "It's pretty freaky. You don't think you would see this at a UCF game," junior Nicole Jorgensen, 22, of Melbourne.
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    Senior Member Array KC135's Avatar
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    Tragic.

    Poor judgement appears to have led to one officers death, and another officer having the rest of his life to reflect.

    Feel bad for all.
    Keep the shotgun handy!!

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    I had seen this and would really like to find out what the final outcome is. It sounds like two cops both made really bad mistakes, one fatal.
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    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    I can't help but think of my "Warning Shot" thread.

    To be honest I've always considered something like this one of the possible dangers one incurs by being armed. It's extremely likely a CCW holder would get shot by the police if the police show up at a crime scene.

    However I honestly think the odds of that are so abysmal even next to the tiny odds of actually needing to fire a gun at another human being, I'll take that chance. It's about like saying I'll never use a computer on the off chance it electrocutes me. To live and be alive is to be in constant danger. But even then it's bound to happen once to someone as this incident demonstrates.

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    Okay. Now I'm confused. All of the reports I've seen/read about this incident state that the officer that was killed had employed less-lethal rubber ammo to disperse the crowd and was (as stated above) shot in the back by a reserve OPD officer. One of the tailgaters ( a non-student) was wounded by the less lethal ammo and is recovering in the hospital.

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    A tragedy on all sides, including the college kids at their football game. Something seems amiss here. A K9 officer, undercover? Looking for underage drinking at a college football game? Mixed up with ATF? If this is the same federal agency working local LEO's, I know how they have operated in the past. Certainly a mismatch of mission vs training, unless there's something they're not telling us. I'm reminded of certain "intelligence gathering" personell overseas who get PFC's over their heads in dirty work. Guess who takes the fall?
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    Senior Member Array A1C Lickey's Avatar
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    Just my two cents, and I wish I had mentioned this earlier in the warning shots thread, but while we were taught to never fire a warning shot (this is military training, by the way) I was trained that three shots fired in rapid succession were to be used to summon help if you had no other means of communication.

    Now the example given for this was- you're on a patrol on the far side of base, and armed assailants start coming over the fence. You try to radio in but your radio is out of commision. Three shots fired rapidly into the air will hopefully get someone's attention.

    I don't know if this is how the dead officer was trained, but when I read the second story and it mentioned him firing three shots into the air it made me think of this.

    A1C Lickey

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    Member Array Shotgun Willie's Avatar
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    I thought the same thing A1C.

    I have always been taught that three quick loud blows from a whistle, gun shots or car horn meant that you were calling for help. This is useful in wilderness survival where one is lost or stranded, helping to aid rescuers in finding you.

    Though I am not passing judgement because I am short on all the facts, I don't know that this was the best place to use this type of call, if this was the intent of the fallen officer.

    Wonder why the second LEO fired so quickly. Was it training or reflexes?

    My thoughts are with his family and with the officer who had to make that decision to fire, killing one of his own.

    P.S. Not sure if you know this or not LMarshall73, but less than lethal rubber rounds still have the capability of killing. Placement and quantity are important when using these rounds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunthorp
    A K9 officer, undercover? Looking for underage drinking at a college football game? Mixed up with ATF? If this is the same federal agency working local LEO's, I know how they have operated in the past.
    I am guessing they are talking about Florida's version which is under the Florida Department of Business and Professional Regulation. And they do a lot of checking on underage drinking.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunthorp
    (SNIP) Looking for underage drinking at a college football game? Mixed up with ATF? If this is the same federal agency working local LEO's, I know how they have operated in the past. (SNIP)
    Not ATF (Alcohol, Tabacco and Firearms) but ABT (FL State's Division of Alcoholic Beverages and Tobacco).

    They enforce Title XXXIV, Chapter 562 of the FL statute.
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    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Having worked various sporting events, as EMS, things can get pretty hairy (the reason I don't "do" fairs, ballgames, etc..). Sounds like bad inter-agency, pre-event communication. I really would not fire "attention getter" shots in any area where I knew other armed officers were, unless I was on the ground, or literally backed into a corner (tho, where is your OC/ASP, at that stage?), for the reason that everyone is edgy, and PC is likely to be assumed a BG immediately. If this was a standing order action, someone senior needs to lose their job, and have a really bad day in civil court......

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    Sounds like a SNAFU of sorts to me, and like most news reports, it seems like the whole story isn't being told. The one scenerio that comes to my mind is that the shooting officer, saw some guy in plain clothes with a gun pointed at a crowd of people. He feels innocent peoples lives are in danger then the shooting may be justified. Again, not there, probably don't know 1/4 of the story, but the outcome should be interesting.
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    Here's what I posted reguarding this incident in another forum. Opinion didn't change over here:

    The sole instigating factor here was the officer who fired warning shots into the air. If the responding officer received reports of a man shooting people it is entirely possible that he may have felt he had to engage the threat without warning... for example after firing his warning shots the firing officer likely was holding his weapon in a horizontal position, pointing at somebody.

    It's possible that an opportunity might have existed for verbal warnings and the like, but IMO it was more probable that the responding officer believed he was in a situation where he had no time, and had to shoot without warning.

    The responsability for this rests, IMO and unfortunately, with the slain officer. Even if the responding officer made a mistake the slain officer created the high-pressure split second decision situation where such a mistake was more likely.

    The slain officer put himself in this position, AND endangered lives with his 3 rounds headed off to God knows where.

    The tactical solution to preventing this problem is 3 fold: 1. Don't fire warning shots. 2. If undercover don't blow your cover. He was there to investigate underage drinking, not throw his weight around with fans that were getting a little rowdy. He should have backed off and called for uniformed backup if he felt the situation needed to be handled. Likewise if he needed to make an underage arrest he should have called for uniformed backup. 3. After firing your weapon (hopefully NOT as warning shots) immediately ID yourself as an officer loudly and obviously as possible.
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