A distinguishing factor

This is a discussion on A distinguishing factor within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Respect for life? I think so - in as much as we are I am sure for the most part respecters of life. The BG ...

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Thread: A distinguishing factor

  1. #1
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    A distinguishing factor

    Respect for life?

    I think so - in as much as we are I am sure for the most part respecters of life. The BG OTOH is in many cases the exact opposite - perhaps not even thinking of his/her own safety ... all the more so if ''high'' on some ''substance''.

    This is what makes a possible encounter scary potentially - the BG may not be in the least interested in your life and well being, to the exclusion even of his own.

    It is this which makes the defensive shoot a critical event - with little or no dalliance on our behalf. It is linked with the ''please don't shoot me'' aspect of cases where robbery or rape are being committed ... when the victim gets a bullet (or more) regardless.

    Like it or not - we have to somehow see a potential lethal threat as - just that! I have always been concerned regarding the ''rationalization process'' - lest I react too soon - but then if we have a gun in our face, I think the luxury of much deliberation goes out the door.!

    All that aside, I do wonder, will I make the right decision if push comes to shove - we can't turn the clock back.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    Senior Member Array BlueLion's Avatar
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    In a situation like that 95 when the chips are down...Don't think react, and hopefully you are aware enough that you avoid the possibility all together.
    Listen, Think and React.....Nuff Said.....

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    Senior Member Array Free American's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, and maybe I'm a little selfish...if push comes to shove I'm pulling. the trigger that is. I'll take my chances with the legal system, but not with a crackhead...the odds are to much against in that case.
    They who give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


    Previously known as "cjm5874"

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    Chris,
    Points well made. If it happens, it can be anything from an escalated confrontation to it just happened. Everytime I'm in an restaurant (including fast food types) I think about what I'd do if a couple of guys walked in in ski masks, one fires a shotgun into the ceiling and orders everyone on the floor.

    I think I'd shoot; but I realize to do so opens the possibility for a slaughter before it ends. I think that speaks right to the heart of the issue you brought up - respect for life. They don't care how many they shoot, maybe even the more the better, and we don't want any innocents shot. They have the advantage.

    One can never be certain about such situations, maybe they'd just take the money and go, or maybe not.

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    Distinguished Member Array RSSZ's Avatar
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    Someone in this forum stated that if a weapon is being pointed at you,you can be reasonably assured that the BD means to shoot you. I believe that. To try to rationalize beyond that is gonna cost you your life. Especially if the BG has fired his weapon into the air. Now you know that the weapon is real ---AND loaded. For me,if I get a clean shot I will kill him. And his partner. The sanarieo about the BG or BG's having a "sleeper" in the establishment(an armed friend just waiting to reenforce their goals) to me makes no sense whatsoever. These BG's MO is a very quick show of force. Why would they have one of their buds just hangin' in the back of the establishment waiting to see if a firefight breaks out. That aint gonna happen. To me it's 'bout as stupid as fretting as to weather your gun is gonna shoot. Sure,if I had time I would take a look for the "sleeper". And for sure after I killed the BG's with the guns I would look to the rest of the "customers" for a threat. What else can we do. We can't shoot everybody and we can't shoot nobody. All we will have to help us if that kinda SHTF is training and mindset.-------

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    It all comes down to training. You have made a well thought out decision, not to be a victim, to protect yourself and others. If the time comes , fall back on training.

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    Actually sleepers are not new and Gunsite emphasizes that scenario in some of their FOF scenarios. It's never stupid to be more aware than less aware or better prepared than less prepared.

    Tailgunner awareness is both smart and protective. If there is one, it is to our advantage to expect it and perhaps even spot the guy prior to taking action. If there isn't one, so much the better. But isn't it smarter to consider more than just the obvious?

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    We've all heard, "Give them what they want, and they'll go away."

    I've also heard, "Even if you've being raped, you're still alive. Don't fight back, it'll only be worse for you."

    And as we know, people get killed even when they do submit and give their attacker what they want. Fast food employees empty their cash registers, just to be herded into the back room and shot execution-style.

    Choosing to submit or fight when you feel your life is threatened is such a personal decision.
    You can submit and survive, you can submit and they can kill you anyway.
    You can fight and survive, or you can fight and still end up dead.

    My life is in my hands, and what I do or not do can mean survival or death. I prefer to have an active say in what happens to me.
    "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa

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    I hope I haven't been misunderstood. I'm not saying don't do anything. I'm saying make tactics a part of the solution before you shoot.

    For example, after I got shot by the tailgunner in the FOF scenario at Gunsite, they didn't say that I shouldn't have shot. They said I should have used better tactics before I shot. Then they offered several options I could have used to greatly improve my chance of survival when I shot the BG.

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    I think most of us will will instinctively identify a threat to our safety. What to do is more difficult. I do not have any military or law enforcment training or experience. I have not and probably wont (reality intrudes here) get the opportunity to attend professional training. So I read, I listen and I try to practice. However, can you really train for reacting under the stress of hostile fire or something like a robbery attempt without ever being under fire? I hope that I will take whatever time is available to me to assess the situation and then make a decision on how to react. I say that knowing that the time alloted for reaction very in every scenario. Much less (perhaps zero) in some and several seconds in others. I hope to make the right decisions knowing I will have to live the consequences for the rest of my life. Just the opinion of a civilian.

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    Distinguished Member Array RSSZ's Avatar
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    Ask your Gunsite guru's to show you the documentation of how many "sleepers" were used in the last 1000 roberies. My thought---you can train as good as possible but some of you think that you can be ready for ANYTHING. I respectfully do not agree. If you make the people in the back the bus a priority then you will simply be killed by the people in the front row. Simply put >>is there a remote possibility that a "sleeper could exist ?? YES; Is it a possibility that the BG could have just graduated from his 5th Gunsite class ?? YES. In the fast food scanerieo I would be more worried about another CCW trying to "help" and then him and me havin' an ol' fashioned stare down. To the point that I have brought up in several other threads,can we be ready,prepared,or trained for ANY situation ?? No,but we can set our priorities and train,train,train.--------- Betty, Love your post.This is what I try to instill in the women that I teach. It's your life,it's your body,fight for it. Get mad,get mean,don't just defend,ATTACK!!-------

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    Man, calm down. What do you base your claims on?

    I'm basing my comments on what Gunsite and Thunder Ranch both emphasize. Clint uses, "Wolves travel in packs" and "If you see one BG, look for another." Both schools make it clear that all the BGs may not be in sight at the same time.

    I don't see what the heat is about. I'm not saying we need to go around IDing everybody, just don't get target focused and do look around for anything that might give away an overlooked BG before and after. What's so bad about that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by XD40
    I have not and probably wont (reality intrudes here) get the opportunity to attend professional training. So I read, I listen and I try to practice. However, can you really train for reacting under the stress of hostile fire or something like a robbery attempt without ever being under fire? I hope that I will take whatever time is available to me to assess the situation and then make a decision on how to react. I say that knowing that the time alloted for reaction very in every scenario. Much less (perhaps zero) in some and several seconds in others. I hope to make the right decisions knowing I will have to live the consequences for the rest of my life. Just the opinion of a civilian.
    Ideally, you'd get some training. However, reality,practicality etc can prevent that. However, there is a lot of published material out there. Books and videos supliment each other. The shortcoming of books and vids is the stuff that has been left out and is only taught in class. Also, you don't have the instructor there to critique your application of the lesson. However, in boards such as this, you will run into a lot of people who have attended the classes and will share their knowldege.

    As far as simulating the stress of a real justified lethal force situation, it can be simulated to some degree with force on force training. Gabe Suarez has a book about it which is just about as close to a how to run a FOF class as you can get. Get the book, get some buddies and get some airsoft guns and gear. Get a rubber knife an do a Teuller drill "for real". Then do it from 5 yards. Then do it from 3 yards. Concealed under normal street wear (try it with the gun under some kind of pullover that can't be just swept away like a photographer's vest).
    There's a reason The Sopranos is set in New Jersey.
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    Member Array St Michael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    Respect for life?

    Like it or not - we have to somehow see a potential lethal threat as - just that! I have always been concerned regarding the ''rationalization process'' - lest I react too soon - but then if we have a gun in our face, I think the luxury of much deliberation goes out the door.!

    All that aside, I do wonder, will I make the right decision if push comes to shove - we can't turn the clock back.
    1) Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change (there will always be Bad guys), courage to change the things I can (God expects us to respect our own life and that of other innocents to the point of necessitating self defense against an unjust agressor) and the wisdom to know the difference.

    Given there will always be Bad guys, and I have the God-given self-determination to fulfill the duty to protect myself, I don't see where I have any option except to be armed and ready.

    And then there's this from my Church's catechism:

    Legitimate defense

    2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."65

    2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:


    If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's.66
    2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

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    "What are the duties required in the sixth commandment?" and answers that the duties required are "...all lawful endeavors to preserve the life of ourselves and others... by just defense against violence..., and [by] protecting and defending the innocent." Question 136 goes on to deal with what is forbidden in the sixth commandment, and gives the answer, "...all taking away the life of ourselves, or others, except in case of public justice, lawful war, or necessary defense."

    -Westminster Larger Catechism, penned in the mid 1640ís



    I must be prepared to DEFEND AGAINST (instead of the word KILL) everyone I meet.
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

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