CCW at a church camp - Page 2

CCW at a church camp

This is a discussion on CCW at a church camp within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I would not ask, but I would leave it in your car. Locked it in the trunk, with the chamber UN loaded. You may even ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array tns0038's Avatar
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    I would not ask, but I would leave it in your car.

    Locked it in the trunk, with the chamber UN loaded. You may even consider storing the clip someplace else in the car.

    I use to teach kids Sunday school class, and at the time I was working for the Feds.

    Even though it was against my supervisors recommended to carry 24x7 I never went there armed.


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    I know its easy for me to say carry because its your situation not mine. However, I have to believe there is an alternative vs. just some of the people saying. "NOT APPROPRIATE at CHURCH CAMP". I find that total BS and disagree. To me saying "NOT APPROPRIATE" is a last ditch effort of irrational argument.

    There are trade offs in everything, add access reduce possibility of being discovered. VICE VERSA. But I have to believe there is something you can do. Even if it just is like you said leave it in your car....

    Maybe Bring another Book and do one of those cut out things and make it lockable. Camera Bag that is completely securable. Guitar Bag, a fake Radio, Camel Pack, extra pair of boots Locked in a foot locker etc...

    I'm kind of shocked at some of the peoples RESPONSES to this thread!!!
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob99VMI04 View Post
    To me saying "NOT APPROPRIATE" is a last ditch effort of irrational argument.
    Yup. Protection of the children is when it makes the most sense.

    Of course, this isn't his own personal, private camp. It's run by an organization, and he, like the others, is a guest. He can certainly makes his views heard, but whether they will be understood will depend on the intelligence and rationality of the folks that run the group. As well, there may be some legitimate blowback if little Johnnie comes home after the camp and says "... and the camp counselor even carried a gun!" Meaning, the way through to carrying lies with (a) approval of the organizers and (b) specific, individual approval of each parent before little Johnny's accepted to the camp. Depends highly on the group in question as to whether any of that will fly.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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  4. #19
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob99VMI04 View Post
    Maybe Bring another Book and do one of those cut out things and make it lockable. Camera Bag that is completely securable. Guitar Bag, a fake Radio, Camel Pack, extra pair of boots Locked in a foot locker etc...
    I would still use my original assessment. With your scenario and method of concealment:
    1. Low risk
    2. Intermediate Risk
    3. High risk: If outed, it now becomes a "HE TRIED TO SMUGGLE A GUN INTO CAMP! outrage instead of just a responsible permit holder carrying in a controlled manner got outed.
    It may be an irrational difference, but I think with a holster concealed on person, worst case scenario is everybody knows and you are asked to leave. Getting caught smuggling a gun into camp in a book or fake radio lends more credence to the 'terroristic intentions'...Like I said, it might be irrational, but it's more of a matter of how things are percieved than how things actually are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    Add me to the list of people who say leave it in the car.

    When I decide if I am going to carry somewhere I have to weigh it against several options.
    1. How dangerous the environment is:(Yes, its a guess, yes bad things can happen anywhere, but the risk in downtown Dallas late at night is a lot different than the risk at a church camp.)
    2. Activity/proximity of people(risk of being discovered): Will I have to go through the dreaded 'hug'? Will I be swimming/running/coaching, etc
    3. Consequence's of getting outed. Fired, arrested, lose friends, etc
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  5. #20
    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Yup. Protection of the children is when it makes the most sense.

    Of course, this isn't his own personal, private camp. It's run by an organization, and he, like the others, is a guest. He can certainly makes his views heard, but whether they will be understood will depend on the intelligence and rationality of the folks that run the group. As well, there may be some legitimate blowback if little Johnnie comes home after the camp and says "... and the camp counselor even carried a gun!" Meaning, the way through to carrying lies with (a) approval of the organizers and (b) specific, individual approval of each parent before little Johnny's accepted to the camp. Depends highly on the group in question as to whether any of that will fly.

    I know and thats why I say its easy for me/ US to say do it do it. or don't. But my beef is more towards the way of thinking and just saying "Not appropriate". Its going to be tough. Noone ever said its a cake walk. Kids are smarter then grown ups and are 5000% more observant. However, I still believe there is a way to do it. Not because I want to argue against the people who say "Not Appropriate", but based souly on the general principle of being prepared and living the lived style of a sheepdog.

    I believe in placing Honor above personal gain. And if you relate that to this situation by giving up all his personal Honor and pride because its "Not Appropriate". What is our Moderator now gaining? A false sense of security, a inch when next time they may ask him to give a mile. If he chooses not to go armed thats his choice, but on sombody else's assumption that its "NOT APPROPRIATE" is absolutly crazy. I found the guy that walked in that church in Colorado and attempted to kill a bunch of unarmed people "Not Approprate".
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    I would still use my original assessment. With your scenario and method of concealment:
    1. Low risk
    2. Intermediate Risk
    3. High risk: If outed, it now becomes a "HE TRIED TO SMUGGLE A GUN INTO CAMP! outrage instead of just a responsible permit holder carrying in a controlled manner got outed.
    It may be an irrational difference, but I think with a holster concealed on person, worst case scenario is everybody knows and you are asked to leave. Getting caught smuggling a gun into camp in a book or fake radio lends more credence to the 'terroristic intentions'...Like I said, it might be irrational, but it's more of a matter of how things are percieved than how things actually are.

    I only look for places where its Illegal to carry. Then I avoid those places as much as I Can.

    If its legal and will only spark people pointing fingers at me and calling me names. I can live with that, at least I will have the option of choosing to fight back.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

    Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!

  7. #22
    Member Array JG01's Avatar
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    Leave the damn weapon at home and have fun with the kids.

  8. #23
    Senior Member Array cwblanco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exactlymypoint View Post
    This summer I am planning on being a counselor to a bunch of 6th graders at our church camp. It will be at a remote, but not isolated part of Portland. I am with the kids 24/7. It is brutal but for those of you who have done it, you know that you make a profound impact on a kid's life.

    I haven't asked the church what their policy is but I am 99.999999% sure that it is no firearms for anyone at the camp. Assuming the policy is no, would you keep one in the car (hence my question about high heat and guns) or do you just suck it up for a week? I would not be totally unarmed as they have never complained about knives of any type at camp. (Go figure.)

    Let's say it is OK for me to carry at the camp. It will be real hot. Shorts and t-shirts are the dress code. I may be engaged in a bunch of physical activity with the kids. Seems like it would be very hard to carry during that week. It will take a Herculean effort to keep the kids from discovering it somehow. I am thinking a COM will keep it somewhat secure while I shower, sleep and all. Any other suggestion?
    If no anti-firearm policy has been discussed or announced, then you may want to consider not bringing up the topic because you are likely to accomplish nothing other than making the management feel uncomfortable.

    As to concealment, you will have to change your ordinary carrying habits. You may in fact have to keep it in your car, or if carried, kept in readily available container. For example, I use my briefcase for every day carry. The one difference is that in your situation, you may find a need to keep the containing pocket locked. Of course you would never let the briefcase/container out of your sight or control. Your explation of course is that it contains your important notes and papers.

    In my situation no one has ever questioned why I always have my briefcase with me. It appears natural and I am comfortable with it.

    Although fanny packs are usually a tip off, a fanny pack in the camping scenario might fit it in quite well. I once had a fanny pack which had an outer mesh-covered pocket where a small camera was visible.

  9. #24
    Member Array mxracr's Avatar
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    As earlier stated, even if you choose to ge unarmed with respect to a gun, don't be a sheep. Always be aware of whats around you and who is around you. Most problems are avoided this way anyhow. Heck, if your out in the woods, grab a big stick to use as a walking stick. Your best weapon is your attitude towards awareness. A weapon doesn't necessarily have to have gunpowder. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to take a spit wad to a gun fight. I just don't think you are a sheep if you decide to leave the gun in the trunk of the car.

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array dnowell's Avatar
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    As someone living in Portland, I can attest to how shocked most people here would be if they found out the camp counselor had a gun. Open carry is simply not going to happen - just inconceivable that he'd get the go ahead.

    And I've been to these sorts of camps as a kid and I agree that keeping a gun concealed would be nearly impossible. One idea: kel-tec in a "Scorpion" wallet as sold by Home. It looks like a leather wallet. Since you'll be at camp, you probably don't need your full regular wallet - a money clip should do fine. That way you can move the wallet around with you - people are naturally protective of their wallets.

    Regarding wading and so on - just wrap the gun in saran wrap before you holster it, or even put it in a plastic bag. Yes, it will slow you down a little bit if you have to use it, but it's a lot better than not having anything.

    Honestly, I suspect that the risk of a kid getting to the gun in this situation and having an accident is way higher than the risk of hostile individuals. Portland is a very nice area and even the bad parts are relatively mild compared to most places. If you look at the crime statistics you'll see that although violent crime certainly does happen, it's basically all downtown.

    And culturally guns are so foreign here that anti-gun businesses don't even post. Which is nice. But people would seriously, seriously freak out if they saw one. It's not like the rest of the country.

    I wouldn't bring a gun, but if you do, I suggest the wallet and lock it in the trunk when you don't have control because kids are known to steal wallets too from time to time.

  11. #26
    Senior Member Array FlyboyLDB's Avatar
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    Here in GA it is a no brainer - no firearm on Church property or at any church function - on or off property.

    In your situation, I would probably leave my firearm at home. There would be a huge liability risk on both you & the church. The firearm would have to be 100% secured at all times. How would you secure it while sleeping, showering, etc?

  12. #27
    Senior Member Array Pete Zaria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exactlymypoint View Post
    Let's say it is OK for me to carry at the camp. It will be real hot. Shorts and t-shirts are the dress code. I may be engaged in a bunch of physical activity with the kids. Seems like it would be very hard to carry during that week. It will take a Herculean effort to keep the kids from discovering it somehow. I am thinking a COM will keep it somewhat secure while I shower, sleep and all. Any other suggestion?
    OK, so it's unlikely you'll be able to carry, but....

    I'd get a few pair of cargo shorts with cargo pockets that can close securely - zippered would be best. You could (or your wife maybe?) install zippers on the cargo pockets if you can't find shorts that already have them. Then get a pocket gun (J frame or .380 Khar maybe?) and secure it in said cargo shorts pocket. Put it inside a pocket holster if you're concerned about printing. For even more security, glue or sew the pocket holster to the inside of the cargo pocket.

    That should take a fair bit of running, rolling around, etc.... Water would be the only problem I'd foresee. Maybe get something nickel plated or gunkoted?

    This thread seems a bit similar to the recent thread about carrying at Boyscout gatherings. As the sheepdog, you want to be able to protect your herd, but the rules don't allow you to.... so do you comply with the rules or do what you feel is right? Personal choice and I won't encourage you to break any rules.

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  13. #28
    Senior Member Array lance22's Avatar
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    I don't believe it's possible to play volleyball with teenagers while carrying - unless you are talking a P 3AT in a smart carry. Even a Kahr worn IWB at 3:30 would be exposed when you jump up and down during athletic activity.

    Trunk? Keep the keys ON YOU. Unloaded. This might be a good option. A knife? That goes without saying. What kind of a man would not have a knife in his pocket?

  14. #29
    Member Array sciencegal29's Avatar
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    At my church camp, we have a bear problem. We get volunteers with hunting licenses to carry for security. Those interacting in sports, etc are generally unarmed, but others around are armed.

    Parents are told it is for security, and that children do not have access to the firearms. Mind you, our camp is 300, but maybe the license would be helpful.

    Also, If you can't keep it concealed, keep it securely locked in your car. Children at the 6th grade age will be extemely curious. If you can't do an introduction to firearms course, some of those students WILL TRY to get a better look. The chance of an accident is quite high.

    Either secure permission, which sounds unlikely, or make sure you have control or secure storage at all times. If it's not illegal in your state, don't ask if you're not certain of permission.

    I'm carrying this summer myself, but due to physical imparement, I will not be participating in the sports. I'll be the scorekeeper, lodge mom, cooordinator, etc.

    Good luck, and pray for guidance.
    Ingrid

    Small, but deadly.

  15. #30
    Member Array MountainPacker's Avatar
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    Forget all the hugging issues, etc. His big problem with carrying the gun (I see no problem with locking it in the car, regardless of their policy) is that there will be many instances where he must seperate from it. He'll have to shower. He may have to swim. He'll have to change clothes. How does he keep it concealed while transitioning to secure storage and back to carry again all those times?

    At a minimum, it's highly likely he'll be spotted. At worst, he may leave it unsecured because someone came in while he was changing clothes and he couldn't lock it up without them seeing it.

    We feel a responsibility to be armed. However, much like a doctor, we must first cause no harm. If he can't figure out a way to keep it secure, I don't think he should carry it.

    In the car, it's nearby (which is never as good as on your person) but all the other issues go away.

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