CCW at a church camp

This is a discussion on CCW at a church camp within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Why do you carry at all in the first place? How can you assess any situation as "low risk"? I carry everywhere, no matter who, ...

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Thread: CCW at a church camp

  1. #31
    Member Array Crestliner's Avatar
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    CCW

    Why do you carry at all in the first place? How can you assess any situation as "low risk"? I carry everywhere, no matter who, what, where or when. Period. That's the decision I came to when I decided to get my LTC. Non-negotiable. Too many "things" can happen, regardless of how "safe" a situation appears to be. Just imagine how bad you would feel if you were in a situation where you really did need to protect those kids? And where's your gun? Home? Locked in a car? You've accepted a huge responsibility in applying for your LTC. Now own up to it. Smart Carry or Thunderwear will take care of this situation nicely. Peace of mind will follow. JMHO (63 yrs. old, LTC for 40 yrs., carry every waking hour.)
    "A voyage in search for knowledge need never abandon the spirit of adventure."

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    I faced that very situation a couple of summers myself. I finally locked the unloaded gun in the glove box (didn't have a trunk) and hid the ammo in the back and kept the Bronco locked with the alarm set at all times.

    At least it's on site that way and you have it for the coming and going.

    And I would carry a knife while in camp if that is alright to do. If you don't the kids will find it. A week in a hot car is not going to harm either your gun or ammo but be careful when the week is done and you go to wear it. It may be very hot to the touch.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

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  4. #33
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crestliner View Post
    Why do you carry at all in the first place? How can you assess any situation as "low risk"? I carry everywhere, no matter who, what, where or when. Period. That's the decision I came to when I decided to get my LTC. Non-negotiable. Too many "things" can happen, regardless of how "safe" a situation appears to be. Just imagine how bad you would feel if you were in a situation where you really did need to protect those kids? And where's your gun? Home? Locked in a car? You've accepted a huge responsibility in applying for your LTC. Now own up to it. Smart Carry or Thunderwear will take care of this situation nicely. Peace of mind will follow. JMHO (63 yrs. old, LTC for 40 yrs., carry every waking hour.)
    I assume this is directed at me...
    I assess situations based on those 3 rules:
    1: Because I am not independently wealthy and I have to earn a living to provide for my family.
    2: Because there are people who I am close to, or that my wife is close to(like her family) that do not have the same views or ideals as I do.
    3: Because I don't want to spend a few hours in jail trying to explain that I smuggled a gun into (insert place here) because I was trying to be safe and protect myself.
    4: Because a 'found gun' can ruin an otherwise great day, or week.
    5: Because some activities are inapropriate for carrying. Like swimming. Leaving it covered up/locked up by your towel with kids around is the worst kind of irresponsibility.

    So thank you for your arrogant Not So Humble Opinion, but I do very well the way I live my life and until I win the lottery (or the in-laws pass on) I will have to compromise some of my ideals for the benefit of the perception of others.

    If you have risen above that and can hold steadfast to every ideal you have and blow everybody else off, than I am happy for you and wish you the best, but some of us are not able to do that, and I would thank you not to tell me to 'own up' or in any other way tell me how to live my life.

    Exactlymypoint asked a quesiton about how we would handle his situation. I posted my personal opinion. You are more than welcome to your own.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  5. #34
    Senior Member Array cwblanco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    I assume this is directed at me...
    I assess situations based on those 3 rules:
    3: Because I don't want to spend a few hours in jail trying to explain that I smuggled a gun into (insert place here) because I was trying to be safe and protect myself.

    So thank you for your arrogant Not So Humble Opinion, but I do very well the way I live my life and until I win the lottery (or the in-laws pass on) I will have to compromise some of my ideals for the benefit of the perception of others.
    If you have personal reasons for your decision, that is fine. However, I do not recall anyone on this thread suggesting that one should engage in UNLAWFUL behavior. If you have a permit and it is not in an prohibited location, then I am having a difficult time ascertaining where jail got into the picture.

  6. #35
    Member Array cl00bie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sciencegal29 View Post
    I'm carrying this summer myself, but due to physical imparement, I will not be participating in the sports. I'll be the scorekeeper, lodge mom, cooordinator, etc.
    Ingrid, strange as it may sound, I believe people are more receptive to a mom carrying a gun than a guy.
    -Tony

    "Those who beat their guns into plowshares will plow for those who didn't." -- Thomas Jefferson

  7. #36
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwblanco View Post
    If you have personal reasons for your decision, that is fine. However, I do not recall anyone on this thread suggesting that one should engage in UNLAWFUL behavior. If you have a permit and it is not in an prohibited location, then I am having a difficult time ascertaining where jail got into the picture.
    You don't have to break the law to be detained or arrested. Just ask that college kid who had a gun in his car. He was arrested and involuntarily commited for a psyciatric evaluation. He broke no laws, he just violated a policy.

    Just because you have a permit and the location is not prohibited by law, does not mean the police cannot arrest you. With the rash of church and school shootings, I think anybody outed at a church gathering would stand a good chance of being detained, arrested, or at least undergo a lengthy questioning.

    Edited to add:
    I am by no means saying if exactlymypoint carries he will be arrested, or even that he shouldn't carry. From his posts before, it sounds like he is pretty level headed, and will take our advice into consideration and then make his decision based on his experiences and knowledge of his church. None of us know the details. We don't know his fellow counselors, how much he is known to the congregation, and many other details.

    I was just trying to explain the 3 things I look at when I decide if I am going to carry in a 'questionable' place.
    Last edited by Kerbouchard; April 2nd, 2008 at 08:49 PM. Reason: clarification
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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    Who is John Galt?

  8. #37
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    As much as I do like, and believe in CCW, I think on this occasion it would be secured in the car. If I was in your shoes, I believe that one would be so preoccupied with trying not to be outed, that I would find one's self not giving 100% attention to the kids, and their wear-abouts.

    My knife would be with me most definitely.

    While you may not be able to talk with the kids about any firearm related items, you may have an opportunity to get an anti-sheep message across.


    Z
    An ounce of lead is worth 200lbs of cop.

  9. #38
    VIP Member Array JimmyC4's Avatar
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    You could leave the gun home and carry the jawbone of an ass--Samson defended himself against a thousand Philistines with one....
    "It's a big gun when I carry it, it is also a big gun when I take it out” – Clint Smith

  10. #39
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    It wasn't that long ago that I was in the scouts. Now my son is starting it. Many scout troops are sponsored by churches. The scouts are a religious organization, sorta. I shot rifle at scout camp and earned a badge for it. In 30 years have they gone from sanctioned shooting to OH MY GOD HE"S GOT A GUN RUN RUN RUN???????

    Perhaps you could offer an introductory course in pistol marksmanship? You would of course have to keep the weapon on you at all times for safety purposes.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  11. #40
    Member Array gwlammers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    Exactlymypoint asked a quesiton about how we would handle his situation. I posted my personal opinion. You are more than welcome to your own.
    +1 to Kerbouchard.

  12. #41
    Senior Member Array cwblanco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    You don't have to break the law to be detained or arrested. Just ask that college kid who had a gun in his car. He was arrested and involuntarily commited for a psyciatric evaluation. He broke no laws, he just violated a policy.
    In Texas if you are carrying on private property and have been informed that it is not permitted or if the statutory notice is posted, then it is unlawful. On the other hand, I am unaware where a CHL permit holder has been arrested merely because he was lawfully carrying and timely and properly produced the permit -- EXCEPT where the individual was engaged in some other form of unlawful conduct such as underage drinking, etc. [I know. I know. You undoubtedly will find an exception somewhere.]

    Only the older and hopefully more mature college students will qualify for a CHL permit. Hopefully, by that time they have out grown the age of drunken parties, doping, and DWI's which seems to get so many of our young students in trouble.

    Taking your comment litterally, no permit holder should ever carry because it may subject him to being arrested and bad publicity. As we all well know, in any newsworthy event, the news media will of course mention the firearm, and will fail to mention the permit.

  13. #42
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    I went to a Pastor's Retreat last month and for the trip to the camp I carried but when I arrived, I left my handgun locked in a COM in my truck.
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

    "A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
    judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
    superior skills."

  14. #43
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    In my opinion the best policy is to be open and honest. So the number one suggestion is to discuss this with your pastor, church and maybe the parents. If they do not understand the need. Maybe bring up how Jeanne Assam saved a 1,000 lives at New Life Church in Colorado Springs. Be calm and rational be prepared to ease their fear. Explain that you are state certified, licensed and trained. Maybe use the insurance analogy of how you also have insurance, first aid kits and CPR training all just in case. Remind them of what the bible says. You know the best way to approach them. If they agree there is no reason not to open carry, as long as Oregon is an open carry state. If not many states allow open carry as long as you remain on private property. Be sure to check your laws state & local. The kids will be fairly accepting. They see other adult with guns. If they ask questions that is a good thing. It will give you a chance to educate them in a positive way about guns.
    If you must conceal. For deep concealment you can use a smart carry, thunder wear or other like product. My idea is to bring a small pack something like one of Maxpedition's Versipack and carry it at all times. Everyone will get accustomed to you having it and will quickly forget it is there. Fill it with a first aid kit, first aid handbook, the kids medication flashlight, water whatever you may need when you are out and about with the kids. Be sure to have some heavy items it, to conceal the guns weight should someone pick it up. If it is acceptable put some pepper spray in it, to explain & justify why none of the children can get into your pack. Lock up some of the outer pockets with good quality luggage locks. You can carry in the gun pocket on the inner side next to you when it is worn. Of course do not lock that pocket when you are carrying. Maxpedition has some add on options to hold & conceal a gun. In one of the locked pockets carry a trigger lock & cable lock. If you have to go in the water or otherwise be separated from your pack make a bathroom call. In a closed locked stall. Unload your gun run the cable lock through your gun, and use the trigger lock. Lock it up deep in your pack. Lock the mags up in another pocket. If you want to be able to secure the pack, bring a small bicycle cable lock or another gun cable lock. Use it to lock the pack to a tree, bench or table, it has several loops to secure the cable through. I'd use the pack for that even if I opted to use a smart carry, thunder wear or whatever. Hope that helps or gives you some ideas
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  15. #44
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AirForceShooter View Post
    Leave it home.
    There's no way you're hiding it from a bunch of kids.
    It's the wrong setting to have it.

    Sorry

    AFS
    I have to adamantly disagree, those kids like all children deserve to live and be safe. So, it is the most appropriate setting of all to be able to protect the innocent and defenseless who depend upon us. Above all our children need to be safe. If the children's well being and safety is not Exactlymypoint number one priority he has no business being around those kids. My guess it is. That is why he is asking the question. If the presumption is that there is no need for the ability to defend ourselves and our loved ones than why do any of us carry a gun. Are our concerns all unfounded paranoia? Are churches and church property somehow immune from the evil in the world? I think not and am sure most here agree.
    There is nothing inherently more dangerous about children being around guns than around a swimming pool, a camp fire or hot stove. In all cases the kids are perfectly safe as long as we conduct ourselves like responsible adults. For hundreds of years millions of children grew up around loaded guns from birth until the time they died of old age without ever being shot.
    Last edited by LongRider; April 4th, 2008 at 12:46 AM. Reason: grammer
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  16. #45
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwblanco View Post
    Taking your comment litterally, no permit holder should ever carry because it may subject him to being arrested and bad publicity.
    No, taking my comment literally, I said I would use 'risk management' to make my decision on whether to carry in a questionable place. Old habits die hard...

    http://safetycenter.navy.mil/orm/dow...Mcardfront.pdf

    Based on the high probability of being 'outed', and the possible negative consequences, I would not personally choose to carry in a church camp environment without prior authorization or consent.

    And as I said before, I am not trying to change your mind. I am simply telling you what considerations and factors that I use to make my decisions. If it helps you to see a different point of view, great. If it doesn't, feel free to disregard.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

    http://miscmusings.townhall.com/

    Who is John Galt?

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