April 6th, 2008 10:04 PM
My neighbor got out of the academy here about a year ago. They were taught that it is the officers discretion. If they feel they are in any danger, disarm them. Otherwise, do not. His 2 FTO's were pretty cool. They just told him to use common sense & listen to his gut. As a side note, we both took our CHL course together a few years back.
Originally Posted by TX-JB
Oh yeah, I have another friend that got out of the academy (different academy than above). His FTO said not to mess with disarming someone unless he had a reason to do so. Otherwise, tell them to keep it where it is.
April 6th, 2008 10:56 PM
Well, you shoulda asked her to!
Originally Posted by flagflyfish
April 7th, 2008 12:25 AM
You also don't know if the officer rolling up to you as a "back-up" has just killed his wife and family and wants to add a co-worker to his collection before the end of his shift. We, here in the US live it a certain amount of trust. We say that past behavior is the best predictor we have of future behavior. That's why we do a background check for security clearances, CCWs, handling money, etc. We also do polygraphs for access to certain data. The reality is that at any time anyone could be the BG. People almost never just "snap", but the warning signs are often missed, ignored, or covered-up. Almost every time an investigation is done on a "spy", co-workers say he seemed to work odd hours, he seemed to own things that his job could not provide, or he seemed to start changing after event X.
Originally Posted by SIXTO
With that said, I can see why a LEO would ask to dis-arm a CCW holder carrying. But I would also say that same LEO should dis-arm a fellow LEO, especially if he is from a different area/unit. A fellow LEO is just as big a risk as a CCW.Maybe even a bigger risk according to the Texas stats on CCW holders and crime.
Many officers say they are trained as "judges of character" and make their own judgment calls at the time based on available information. I'm sure information such as Marine Corps tags, age of the driver, and demeanor are all used in assessing the situation.
Here in Colorado we have had two high-profile cases in the last two years where a LEO has shown his badge and ask for "Professional Courtesy" when the off-duty LEO was DUI. As you could imagine that didn't work-out well for the off-duty LEOs. The first was a Douglas County Sheriff cadet and he was fired and expelled. The other was reprimanded.
I wouldn't mind being dis-armed. All ask is that the LEO be careful with my CCW (no NDs please), be courteous, and we can all just get along. It would be pretty da-gone hard to explain if the LEO shot himself with my weapon while I'm still waiting for the ticket. I'm sure that CSI could figure out my prints are no where near the cursier or my footprints aren't outside my car.
April 7th, 2008 12:37 AM
I agree 100% with this attitude. Its the fumbling around with weapons that add to the ability to have a ND. A ho;stered weapon remians a non-threat item. Here in Colorado we are not required to notify. If we lost our CCW due to criminal actions, the issuing agency (sheriff dept) would actually require the physical card returned.
Originally Posted by Sergeant Mac
April 7th, 2008 12:52 AM
Seems to me if the LEO uses good tactical positioning, then the driver is not a threat. There is no way the driver could un-holster spin in his seat and fire at the officer after he just handed them his permit. I was under the understanding that the officer is taught to speak to the driver in their rear view mirror. I did have a CSP talk to me through the passenger side window even with the passenger. It was after he ran my tags and felt at ease.
I would worry more about who could be in the back seat behind the smoked windows. He/she might not be a CCW holder. Could be a hitchhiker!!!
April 7th, 2008 01:16 AM
SIXTO, I both like and respect you but on this we will disagree. I am a former LEO and I DO in fact understand this subject and all that goes with it quite well.
Originally Posted by SIXTO
I still do not feel it is necessary for me to be disarmed just because the LEO wants to do so.
Luckily, I too live in a state where we are not required to inform the LEO we are armed, and so I will not if I am pulled over for some reason.
April 7th, 2008 05:28 AM
Here in Utah we DO have to tell the officer that we are armed, (I had to just an hour ago when i got pulled over for a broken tail light) but I disagree with having to disarm and would be very very upset and question the officer even to the point of being belligerent for a number of reasons if an LEO asked me to do so.
A) I don't know if this officer knows how to use the gun safely.
B) I don't want them reaching their hand anywhere near my crotch for my 1 o'clock IWB.
C) What if they don't take care of my gun and scratch it up on something? (I always have it in a holster but the grips/some of the frame are uncovered and i'm VERY particular about keeping my gun in pristine condition. In Cdwolf's experience (post#24) the cop placed it in his toolbox in the back of the truck, What if it gets scratched up???)
I have been pulled over more than my share of times while i've had my permit, I have always been courteous and respectful, always rolled down my window and stuck both hands out ASAP then leaning my head out to inform them as they're walking up to my car that I am carrying and that I do have my permit. I have never been asked any follow up questions about my gun (is it loaded, where is it, etc.) or even asked to keep my hands where they can be seen but I always volunteer this info anyway and ask if there's anything in particular they'd like me to do(one jokingly said 'just don't shoot me!' and that has been the only semblance of a response to this). As he walks back away from my car I'll even put my hands interlocked on top of my head to help make the officer feel more comfortable.
It is at THIS point, after doing everything I possibly could to help make the officer feel more comfortable with me that if he asks me to disarm that i'm going to have a problem with it.
Anyone know what is within the rights of the officers here in utah concerning such a thing? Are they just allowed to do whatever they wish?
I have a brother who took his concealed class within the last year and he was told specifically about 'bad' officers trying to remove weapons from permit holders and what to do if he found himself in this situation; I will have to ask him for sure what he was taught. I believe it was something to the effect that the instructor wanted to be called and given the 'bad' officers name and department and that he personally would call their superiors and teach them their rights about doing such things and to have complaints filed? Pretty sure the teacher IS/WAS an LEO. Anyone else have a similar experience in their classes or info on anything like this?
"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
April 7th, 2008 05:45 AM
Mustang, I'm like you. Don't scratch my gun! At the time he put it in my toolbox it was hunting season.My toolbox is a regular truck box but I lined it with cedar closet panels. During deer season I have a couple pair of boots 2-3 change of clothes sometimes my shotgun. He placed it in my coveralls in my toolbox! Had it not been late and only a mile from my house I would have pushed the issue a little!!
GUN CONTROL= I WANT TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL OF THE GUN
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed
April 7th, 2008 05:51 AM
"she touched my gun"...I bet it's weeks before you clean it.
Originally Posted by flagflyfish
April 7th, 2008 07:10 AM
Dis-Armed & un-loaded? my my, whats this world coming too?
S&W M&P .45
Virginia Beach, Va.
Senior Chief Petty Officer, RETIRED, USN
Certified NRA Pistol Instructor
NRA Range Officer
April 7th, 2008 07:47 AM
Mike, I'm not just talking about in general, but also abot that specific stop. There might be something that you or I (as the citizen) going on that we dont know about just yet, giving the LEO a good reason to disarm us.
Originally Posted by TN_Mike
Again, I wouldnt do it myself each time, but I can see why some would want too. I've never disarmed a CCW holder myself, except for the drunk ones, or the ones that tried something stupid. One just wouldnt sit still long enough for me to send him on his way, that made me nervous, so I disarmed him until we were done. Maybe the OP made the pretty officer nervous because he kept checking her out... you never know. I dont see anything wrong with that.
CCW is a fairly new thing in a lot of areas, and a lot of LEO's dont pay attention to it until they have to deal with it... so they deal with it the only way they know how too... how they are trained.
April 7th, 2008 09:46 AM
I have the honor of riding with LEO in an Aux police capacity. I help them with traffic stops, calls... I've talked to them about it and it is an individual call.
Originally Posted by SIXTO
safety is the first and only concern they have.
You know your a good guy, but will they know, just because we have a CCW card?
stress does silly things to some people. It's different to "trust" a stranger to hold your camera then to have a lethal weapon in reach.
My heart gets going with any stop and then when we do pat someone down and they DO have a knife, stungun...(happens all the time) and we just asked them if they where carrying knifes, needles... it gets LEO on edge. Your trained to never let your guard down and traffic stops are some of the most dangerous situations for cops.
I have no problem is submitting to their authority and thats what it is, submitting.
My problem is if they don't have proper training, experience in safely disarming me.
So my suggestion is getting these departments to do better and proper training.
Cops have plenty of training over many area's but there is only limited time.
I'd be hard pressed to know if there was a program out there to just show them all the types of guns there are and how to unload, engage safety and such.
All I can suggest to any stopped and asked to disarm is don't take it personally, they will do their job in the manner they feel is safest. If you have a problem with anything a LEO does, in the field you will not win.
The 2 officers I've ridden with the longest (5 and 10 years) have not disarmed any CCW (as of yet, but stated it is an idividual case). And neither has disarmed a fellow LEO, yet, but would if they felt the need to. I've not been on a run with them when a CCW was present (I only ride 3 shifts a month.) but I will be interested in seeing how it happens.
There are lots of signs that LEO look for that we are not aware of in the field and it's all judgment call. Any stop is high energy.
I even felt my heart racing when I was pulled over and it was for a randum commercial vehicle inspection. Thats really normal, but it's also normal to get the adreniline going.
Very heated issue and I totally understand both side of it. The longer we have this hopefully the easier it will get.
April 7th, 2008 01:54 PM
Pretty or not, Not a good stop if she disarmed you. I certainly wouldn't have called in a compliment. All you need is some rookie pulling your gun out, accidently pulling the trigger, and shooting you.
April 7th, 2008 02:37 PM
I'll have to agree with the folks who thinks being disarmed is a bad idea. I can respect that an officer might want more control over the situation by having the weapon in his/her posession, but handling the gun more than is needed, especially unloading it is totally unneccessary. That opens up 2 more opportunities for an accident - once when the officer unloads it, and one more when you re-load it. Is it a big risk? Probably not, but why add any more risk to a situation at all? Even worse are these stories we hear about guns being unloaded AND field stripped....but I won't go into that here.
April 7th, 2008 02:39 PM
I do understand why an officer would disarm a CHL and possibly even unload it, but I'm not sure it helps as much as they would think. If a criminal is planning on shooting the officer, they usually don't tell them about the gun first.
But the other times where a person is acting "odd", I agree, you don't know what they are capable of and the risks are too high to leave them armed. And I would definitely agree on disarming the drunk ones, and if it happened at a traffic stop and they were driving, I'd hope they get a little more than just disarmed.
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