Got pulled over by a rookie today
This is a discussion on Got pulled over by a rookie today within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Wow, where do I start? I have about 50 different opinions on various posts bouncing around right now.
First, she certainly has a right to ...
April 7th, 2008 05:47 PM
Wow, where do I start? I have about 50 different opinions on various posts bouncing around right now.
First, she certainly has a right to disarm anyone she is 'holding'. She was in training. I were training (and I'm not LEO), I would expect her steet smarts to be pretty weak; those hairs on the back of her neck haven't properly developed and, being the training officer, I'd make it clear to her to dissarm everyone. When she is on her own and learns to trust her own instincts she can make the call.
Second, my SOP is I want the officer to be as comfortable as possible. As has been stated, he (or she) doesn't know me. The windows go down, the interior light goes on & hands on the wheel. Of course the officer is going to be on high alert if he is coming up on an unknown/unseen person who may not want to see him. It just makes sense to me to make as much known as possible.
Third, LEO are human & law enforcement is high stress at times. If the officer pulling me over just got back from visiting his buddy who was shot & in the hospital and dissaming me makes the officer more comfortable; so be it.
Four: I expect LEO to be competent in disarming me, handling my brand of firearm, unloading it, etc. As for the accidental discharge; any of my guns need the trigger to be pulled to fire and a few things need to happen before that can occur. I sure believe any LEO knows keepa da finga ofa da trigga.
Five: Respect begets respect.
Six: Things can go ugly very fast from a LEO point of view: keep that in mind, they deal with it daily. In 1989 drove up on officer Gerald Walker shotguned to the belly and bleading to death. He had stopped the BG for a burned out tail lamp. The officer did not know the BG had just killed his wife & mother in law(I think). The BG was shorly after shot to death in a gunfight. <edit> he was not shot, just arrested: Daniel Joe Hittle #679 Some people are just bad. <end edit>
Seven: My Dad was Dallas PD for nearly 40 years & six, above, really brough home the real dangers of his job. He always said there is a sense Cops get and it comes with time and I truly believe that is the case for the majority of LEO out there. Fortunately his always worked. For the others, I hope they are being diligent and careful.
Last(for now): If I've done what I do during a traffic stop & still get dissarmed; so be it. And happy to do it.
Last edited by shavis; April 7th, 2008 at 06:18 PM.
April 7th, 2008 06:14 PM
Can I add my opine to the long list.
1. Don't volunteer you're armed unless required by law.
2. If there are actually jurisdictions where officers are supposed to disarm ccw holders, and I guess there are somewhere, then it is bad policy for all the reasons that have been cited in other replies.
3. Normally rookies are paired with experienced officers in an attempt to avoid these kinds of inadvisable activities, i.e. disarming ccw'ers.
4. I would have made the phone call inquire about policy in the jurisdiction and lodged a complaint if it was not written policy to disarm detainees.
5. I wouldn't have cared if she looked like Jabba the Hut or Cindy Crawford but then I'm 58 years old.
April 7th, 2008 06:54 PM
Let's see. I've just been stopped by LE. Let me think... What state am I driving in today? Do I have to declare? All this stress and I'm able to remember the rules here. Unlikely
When we train we learn techniques to take care of possible firearm faults. Methods have been developed to cover the most situations and require minimum analysis under stress.
Therefore, for me, I'm always going to turn on the interior lights, have my hands on the steering wheel, declare my CCW and my armed status. One method to cover all situations.
Just as I expect to be treated as an individual, with respect and given the benefit of the doubt, I do the same with the officer that has stopped me. Over the last 10 years I've probably been stopped around 7 times. Only one ticket by a rookie who insisted on "talking" to me in his "command voice" close to my ear.
April 8th, 2008 01:04 AM
As usual SIXTO, your arguments tend to be a little more level headed than mine. As result no doubt from spending a lot longer on the job than I did.
Originally Posted by SIXTO
I can see your point and though I may not think that it is a good idea for a LEO to disarm a CCW citizen, I can see reasons why one would want to.
April 8th, 2008 03:01 AM
The vast majority of officers would have no idea how to safely clear and lock open a C&L 1911. Most had never held a gun until the Glock was put in their hands.
Treat me good, I'll treat you better. Treat me bad, I'll treat you worse.
April 8th, 2008 04:13 AM
I don't know why people here keep acting like all LEOs are totally incompetent when it comes to handling a firearm. Clearing a cocked and locked 1911 isn't difficult, I managed to figure it out pretty easily the first time I picked one up- and I was probably about 12 at the time. In fact, I haven't had to break out the instruction manual to figure out how to load or unload any pistol I've ever touched- and that isn't a small number. If you can clear a Glock you can clear a 1911- the little thumb safety really isn't something you need a master's degree to figure out.
I regularly shoot with a group of about 10 guys. 5 of them are municipal police officers and one works for a three letter agency. Not one of them has managed to shoot themselves or anyone else when picking up someone else's pistol. The club I belong to shares the range with the local PD. I see many more police officers training at the range than I do local CCW holders- and there are far more permit holders than there are police officers in this city.
Maybe some of the people here train more than the average police officer, maybe they don't. (We may have several keyboard commandos that never find the time to actually pull a trigger~ I don't know you all well enough to know what you're doing when you aren't posting here.) I do know that when I go to a public range it isn't at all unusual to find myself on the wrong end of a muzzle but that never seems to happen when I'm at the range and the only other people there are LEOs. Sorry, but if two members of this forum both walk up to me and tell me that I have to give my pistol to one of them and one is a LEO and the other isn't, the LEO is going to be the one holding the gun every time. I know they have been trained to some degree. (Of course the only person I fully trust is myself- but I'm funny like that.)
"The only people I like besides my wife and children are Marines."
- Lt. Col. Oliver North
April 8th, 2008 04:19 AM
I feel the need to put in my two cents here. In MN, and other states as well, the process to get a permit to carry only requires a couple hours of class and a background check to make sure you're not a felon. There is no psychological test and no test to determine if you're a felon that's never been caught. When I stop a car and there's a weapon in it the weapon is coming back with me until the stop has concluded. I'm not willing to leave a person to sit and get angry/annoyed/resolved while I'm about to walk back up to the car with a citation or warrant. The weapon always gets returned to a valid permit holder when the stop is done. To allow a person to sit in the vehicle, where I can't see their hands, and give them time to stress out with a weapon would be absolutely terrible tactics. Just because YOU know that you wouldn't shoot me doesn't mean I know it. YOU can't speak for every permit holder's state of mind or history. A responsible permit holder needs to accept the fact that not everyone with a permit is reasonable and responsible and leos can't pick and choose who to trust.
April 8th, 2008 07:01 AM
Well, at least she didn't put each bullet in it's own separate baggy...
Originally Posted by flagflyfish
+1 on reasons to carry spare magazines!
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
April 8th, 2008 07:49 AM
No reason to disarm you. When I took my CCW class the instructor who trains LEOs always tells them never to disarm someone with a valid CCW permit. If he finds out they do then they get their asses chewed out by him and their SO. There is no reason for them to need to secure a secure gun unless its more than a routine traffic stop.
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"
April 8th, 2008 09:54 AM
There is no such thing as a routine traffic stop, anybody who has ever done more than one T-stop knows this.
April 8th, 2008 10:02 AM
How many guys or girls do you know that have ccw that should not have one even though they have passed the background and the classes. LEO do not know who these people are. You maybe one of them and just don't know it. I do not blame any LEO for disarming a CCW if it is done respectfully. An LEO is duty bound to keep control of the situation as best as possible at all times, that may mean handcuffing or putting you in their car, or temporarily removing the deadly weapon from your person until the business at hand is dealt with. Some people just need to get over it.
Friends don't let friends be MALL NINJAS.
I am just as nice as anyone lets me be and can be just as mean as anyone makes me. - Quoted from Terryger, New member to our forum.
April 8th, 2008 10:42 AM
April 8th, 2008 10:54 AM
I call BS here. Actually, if I were in law enforcement I would be offended at you assumtion of my incompetence.
Originally Posted by AZ Husker
April 8th, 2008 10:54 AM
Originally Posted by AEA
Originally Posted by ccw9mm
Originally Posted by maclean3
Originally Posted by Supertac45
Originally Posted by OM44
Originally Posted by Detroittwister
Well I see more than one thing in common here, no one quoted above was there, nor were any of them the officer in question.
There may be reasons unknown to FlagFly that lead her to disarm him. Ok, standard traffic stop I get that.
Was there a BOLO on a similar truck? Did he match the physical description of a wanted person? We just don't know why he was disarmed, only that he was.
It's really easy to armchair this thing. Do I feel he was rightfully disarmed? No. But I'm not privy to all of the information, nor do I know the officers frame of mind. But to say that there WAS NO REASON is a blanket statement and and such statements are not being made with all the facts, just the facts as reported by the OP from his point of view.
There are two sides to every story. And most times here, we only get one of them.
*On a side note*
I really have to commend all of you for keeping this thread as civil as it has remained, this is usually one of those topics that a few posts have to get deleted in as sometimes too many members but heads on this issue.
April 8th, 2008 12:14 PM
While I wasn't there, as all but one here weren't, all we can do is base our opinions and responses on what was originally posted. That's how it goes on forums.
My opinion takes it a step further, since I choose to not present my permit and announce that I'm armed. I've only been in that position once, and all went well, just as it should. Since I am doing nothing wrong or criminal when I carry, it's not a big deal--no, I am not a threat to the LEO. Yes, that's legal in my state, and I'll answer honestly if asked by the LEO, as required by law.
"It's a big gun when I carry it, it is also a big gun when I take it out” – Clint Smith
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