Got pulled over by a rookie today
This is a discussion on Got pulled over by a rookie today within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by shavis
I call BS here. Actually, if I were in law enforcement I would be offended at you assumtion of my incompetence.
April 8th, 2008 03:47 PM
Actually, I was. 20 years. My statement was not an assumption, it was an observation.
Originally Posted by shavis
Treat me good, I'll treat you better. Treat me bad, I'll treat you worse.
April 8th, 2008 04:03 PM
That's insane - she had no right to disarm you, much less remove the bullets from the magazine and tel you to move from the location before re-arming. Personally I would immediately contact the station and ask what policy is in this situation.
This is not how a police officer should behave.
April 8th, 2008 04:37 PM
No, it's not "insane." A police officer has every right to control the situation, indeed a DUTY to control the situation, when conducting an investigation of any kind. Even a traffic stop.
Originally Posted by imatt
If the state can regulate who can carry a pistol and where it can be carried, through a codified permit process, what make you think that police officers cannot maintain control of any weapon that they come into contact with by virtue of that very same permit?
I've been a police officer for about 11 years now, and I will tell you that I WILL control the situation if I stop you, whether you like it or not. I have only disarmed a couple of permit holders, I don't do it routinely. I don't write a lot of traffic tickets, and if you're a good citizen with a permit, you're even less likely to get a ticket from me. Usually, I'll ask what you're carrying, and there will be a little small talk about said pistol, I'll check your license, and you'll be on your way.
In the rare occasion that I do disarm a permit holder, I do if for my safety. If everything checks out ok, you get your gun back. What matters is that I control the situation for my safety and the safety of the public, not whether you feel offended.
A CCW permit is not an automatic "I'm a good guy" card. Permits can be forged. Someone could have another person's permit, with no other ID on them. The permit could have been revoked, but not turned in by the holder. I've arrested more than one drunk with a permit, and more than one person involved in domestic violence who had a permit and no prior criminal record. Although idiots with permits are far from common, they ARE out there.
I'll tell you what department policy is on our department regarding disarming permit holders. We are taught to use our discretion. No 2 situations are ever alike, and to try to make a blanket policy that prevents police officers from EVER disarming a permit holder, just because someone's feelings might get hurt, is ridiculous.
If you have to have a license to do it, then it only stands to reason that the state has the authority to regulate it. Terry v. Ohio is a Supreme Court ruling that allows police to perform a "pat-down" search of your person for weapons and to disarm you if the officer has reasonable suspicion that a person is armed during an investigation. A state-issued permit does not change that.
Maybe some permit holders need to realize that most police officers support citizens carrying concealed weapons, and not every police officer is looking to trample on your rights or hurt your feelings by disarming you temporarily during an investigation.
Slow is smooth.....smooth is fast.
April 8th, 2008 05:13 PM
Nicely done!! Bad cop and Good cop in same paragraph.
Originally Posted by Metro 40
April 8th, 2008 05:17 PM
What I'm getting a sense of is most CHL holders are feeling insulted or feel that rights are infringed when being disarmed. Personal feelings (feeling insulted: I'm one of the good guys! Why is he taking my weapon?) have no place in this discussion. Rights? The officer is completely within his rights to dissarm. Weather it's necessary is a judgement call. Exercise patience if the officers judgement differs from yours. Keep in mind that these meetings are instigated by someone appearing to break the law.
Oh, and ditto everything Metro 40 said.
April 8th, 2008 09:42 PM
Man I hate to jump in here, but lacking any good sense here goes. I have to agree with AZ Husker . I am currently a LEO and I would say half the dept does not know the manual of arms for a 1911. Remember it has not been in our armed forces for a long time and almost never issused by any police dept. As a side note in 1985 I was in a class in Houston TX, for police self-defense instructors, and coming back from lunch I was the first student back in the room, when one of the teachers, a well known national instructor about special gang violence, ask to see my weapon. He could not clear it. Also note of the 45 to 50 people in the classroom I was the only one carrying a 1911 including all the instructors. And this was before the Glock came out.
April 8th, 2008 10:20 PM
I will add my 2cents. As we can see an officer is going to do what they want and that is not going to change...... What I would like to see done different is how the disarming is accomplished. This would be my ideal situation.
Officer "Good afternoon"
Driver "officer I am a ccw, and am armed"
officer"Hang tight I will be right back"
Officer goes to his car and gets out a inexpensive gun lock box like Cabela's sells for about $30.00, it is padded and lockable. He returns to the driver's car
Officer" Here is a lock box with the key. Remove your weapon, unload it and put the gun with the empty magazine in it, then turn the key and lock it. Leave the key in the lock. When you are done with that place the box on top of your vehicle and I will come and get it.
The person most familiar with the weapon will be unloading it, and it will be placed and a safe environment to prevent scratches.
The officer could run serial numbers if he wanted, and he would have possession of it during the stop
Officer "Here's your paperwork and here's your gun back. When I get back in my car remove the gun from the box, open your door and set the box on the ground and drive away."
Officer finishes his paperwork and picks up the box as he leaves.
This may not be perfect, but is solves some obvious problems.
An ounce of lead is worth 200lbs of cop.
April 9th, 2008 09:20 AM
Sounds to me there's a bit of training that needs to be done here. If I were king all LEO would be familiar with most all pistol actions. My experience with LEO is mostly with the old guys my Dad's age. Perhaps time & life experience is a plus. The all could handle a 1911, beretta, glock, HK, etc. And we all had fun at the range shooting them. I guess I shouldn't assume all LEO, by thier choice of profession, are as proficient as I'd like to think. BUT, I still want to belive that is a small minority.
Originally Posted by JAG45
April 9th, 2008 01:31 PM
It would seem to me that a LEO could disarm one without attempting to unload the gun. Since there are so many models and types around it is doubtful if very many could safely unload them.
If it makes the officer feel safer to disarm me then that is OK by me, but hopefully he will not cause an AD due to his lack of knowledge.
April 9th, 2008 04:49 PM
Gotta ask about this one. Glad someone mentioned it.
Originally Posted by SIXTO
Do LEOs generally change a traffic stop from a "regular" stop to a Terry Stop just because someone has a declared weapon? If it is not a Terry Stop, from what I understand, the taking of the weapon would not be correct.
I'm learning here.
April 9th, 2008 06:27 PM
I'm just curious. For those of you officers that do take possession of a legally carried firearm, how do you do it? I've removed countless weapons from bad guys, but usually had their face in the dirt to do it. Do you ask me to draw and hand it to you? Do you come around behind me and draw it yourself? What if it's deep IWB, how far are you allowed to reach in? My wallet and my IWB are touching. Is it OK to go for my billfold, or is that too close for comfort?
Treat me good, I'll treat you better. Treat me bad, I'll treat you worse.
April 9th, 2008 07:05 PM
Terry search and traffic stops are two seperate things... Google Terry Vs. Ohio, that should explain things for you.
Originally Posted by sbacheler
April 9th, 2008 07:09 PM
It depends on the situation; everyone is a little different. This is the main reason I wont do it unless I need to for some reason, I dont fear an A/D, I understand how semi auto pistols and revolvers work.
Originally Posted by AZ Husker
As for how deep we go, as deep as needed.
April 9th, 2008 07:11 PM
Don't LEOs assume that there is a gun in every car? Even if you disarm us, that same theoretical gun is still hidden and ready to shoot you. You're not any safer than you were -- in fact you may let your guard down a bit plus you're handling a strange loaded weapon.
April 9th, 2008 07:17 PM
Yes... but we also remove known threats first, and worry about the unknown later.
Originally Posted by stanislaskasava
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