This is a discussion on Got pulled over by a rookie today within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by stanislaskasava Don't LEOs assume that there is a gun in every car? Even if you disarm us, that same theoretical gun is ...
I have no problem with the LEO taking control of the weapon, I understand why it is done, and agree. LEOs have a difficult job, and the stress of not knowing when the S will hit the F must make you a bit jumpy at times.
I just think unloading the weapon is overkill. Most CCWers carry a spare mag so the gun can be reloaded in seconds. Removing the mag and bullet in the chamber for safety is one thing, but unloading the whole mag seems a bit excessive, IMO.
I've GOT to address numerous issues, mainly regarding LEO's.
I'll turn 55 in about two months. I'm a 35 year member of the gun culture. I have a DEGREE in gunsmithing and I'm a retired NRA certified firearms instructor as well. I also have a degree in computers, a field that I spent almost twenty years in.
I've worked with LEO's from the Federal, State, County and City (local) level for at least the past ten years. I've TURNED DOWN three different offers to join different forces as either an officer or an officer/armorer. Insurance companies have found that if I have a job that REQUIRED me to wear my vest (yes I do have several) that at some point, I will probably need it.
That DEGREE in gunsmithing I earned? I went through an ATF background check. TWICE. Once before being accepted and once before they would give me my degree. I also HELD a Top Secret security clearance from the US military (long story involving 'The Big E' and the shipyard I worked for) but that was years ago. I've also held CCW in Oregon, but not in my current state of Colorado.
I have numerous LEO's as friends and relatives. One of the things that NONE of the LEO's here want to discuss with ANYONE is exactly HOW POOR they are AS A GROUP at handling and shooting firearms. Unless they were a member of the gun culture (some HERE are good example of members of the gun culture) before they were LEO's, chances are 50/50 that they are extremely poor at handling firearms. I have two different buddies who train LEO's in their firearms skills. Truth be told, I've NEVER seen a facility more shot up than the ones that the LEO's use. Sheesh, half of them can't hit the broad side of a barn. The floor, the ceiling, the walls, yah, you betcha. The target, not so much. The OTHER half of the class eventually gets it.
So it's NO WONDER that they are SO NERVOUS about us civilians being armed. Given they can't trust some of their own officers to properly handle a firearm, most of them think that the general populace must have NO IDEA how to properly handle them.
For a LARGE MAJORITY of civilians, that is absolutely a valid concern.
But guess what? If you have a CCW, chances are fair to middlin that you have MORE FIREARMS TRAINING than the officer doing the 'T-stop' as SIXTO likes to talk about.
SIXTO, in LA, when the two bad guys were robbing that bank and came out with MASSIVE firepower, where did the LEO's turn for better guns? To the private sector. To the owner of a gun shop. Yet they didn't do any good, because they couldn't get back to the scene with them in time, but they came to the private sector for help.
Don't EVEN get me started about Waco. That's when 100 FEDERAL agents caught a break. RUNNING OUT OF AMMO in a Federally initiated raid is unforgivable. The next time, the Feds might not be so lucky. Koresh could have had his followers out there 'capping' each officer or WORSE YET, taking them as hostages. Instead, he was more honorable than the Feds. They raised a white flag and he let them go.
Then there were the two bank robbers in Miami and the FBI. That didn't turn out too well either. For PRETTY MUCH the same reason. LEO's who did NOT know how to properly handle the situation because it required the use of firearms. That whole story was a nightmare from start to finish. SO what did the FBI conclude? That they needed more training? NO, they concluded they needed bigger caliber handguns. That's group think at it's finest.
So, for all the LEO's out there. No offense, but just because you've had training (firearms seems to be the least amount of training MOST of you get) doesn't mean you are actually 'qualified' to disarm a citizen. Listening to you whine about how dangerous your job is and how all you see is the bad side of life, well that's the job YOU TOOK VOLUNTARILY. No one put a gun to your head. And nothing is keeping you there. Yah, yah, I know, you wanted to 'help people'. BECOME A PRIEST OR RABBI OR SOCIAL WORKER IF YOU FEEL THAT NEED TO HELP PEOPLE. This doesn't even address the 'authoritarian complex' so many LEO's have and express daily.
I read the whole thread over on the LEO's forum. I will say one thing.
The Second Amendment IS NOT AND NEVER HAS BEEN ABOUT HUNTING. It's about the GOD GIVEN RIGHT OF CITIZENS BEING ABLE TO PROTECT THEMSELVES AGAINST PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND YOUR BOSSES (politicians). Be sure to watch the ENDING of the You Tube video below. It's about four minutes.
Here is the testimony of a witness to the Luby cafeteria shooting in Kileen, Texas. For those of you who are not aware of what happened, here is Wiki's account of it.
I lost a female Harley riding friend in that incident. She had left her handgun in her pickup truck that day, figuring that she was 'safe' because it was broad daylight in a heavily crowded restuarant. That decision cost her and her friend their lives that day.
You WILL excuse me, but my wife and I had our home broken into one evening a LONG time ago by two burglars. We were in bed asleep. Apparently my waking up and going to the bathroom when they were there scared them off. But not without removing my camera equipment and a brand new VCR (IT WAS A LONG TIME AGO).
Do you know WHAT the detectives who came out and filled out the paper work said? That we were lucky all they wanted was our 'stuff'. Ever since then, I've been armed to the teeth. I also have numerous LARGE dogs. Anyone foolish enough to attempt entry into our home, after hearing all the ruckus set up by our dogs will meet a VERY determined and heavily armed home owner.
Unless you are SWAT, YOUR JOB IS TO FILL OUT PAPERWORK AFTER A CRIME IS COMMITTED. Regardless of what everyone sees on TV. And you ALL know it. That's Law Enforcement's 'dirty little secret'. Anyone who thinks their job is to 'Protect and Serve' is seriously deluded.
Last, but not least, I still give free firearms lessons to women and children. Note I did NOT say marksmanship lessons. If they want to become more proficient, I can provide them with numerous outlets that WILL provide them with that service. I PROVIDE THEM with the knowledge necessary on HOW to properly AND SAFELY handle any firearm. Most of the women in my class live in rural settings. Their husbands are generally NOT at home during the day and they find themselves alone (or with their children) out in the country. We ALL know what can happen. I provide them with the knowledge that IF they need to use a firearm that's IN the home, they can do so safely. Plus, with the exception of drugged out or absolutely stupid people, criminals who hear the first shot fired turn tail and find easier pickin's as it were.
So, if I'm stopped on my way to a lesson and asked if I'm 'ARMED', my answer is YES. EXACTLY what do you intend to do with six to eight handguns, four to six AK's, two or three AR's, two shotguns and over 1000 rounds of ammo? Of course, the numbers vary, depending on how many women and children I'm training on any given session. All the training occurs on their farms or ranchs. I've apparently been successful, as I am constantly being asked about my 'Pistol Packing Momma' class from complete strangers who got my number from a friend of theirs.
So, I see LEO's in a completely different light. Mainly because I KNOW SO MANY OF THEM. And any time it's suggested that I join the force, I tap them on their chest and tell them 'when you NEVER need a vest to do your job, give me a call'. Guess what? No one has called me back. NOT IN MORE THAN TEN YEARS OF DOING THIS. Just because you are wearing a uniform, doesn't mean you and your COHORTS are any more qualified than I AM. In most instances that is NOT the case.
I personally suggest any LEO with the 'I'm DA LAW' attitude, go read 'Unintended Consequences', then get back with me. Because in truth, you guys are a minority that wouldn't last TWO SECONDS without the respect given to you by guys LIKE ME. And I daily thank LEO's where ever I meet them. I also thank all our service personnel when I meet them. I'm also a member of the Patriot Guard riders and after selling my Harley have joined the local Military Vehicle Collectors of Colorado club. I currently own two retired military vehicles. We support and respect LEO's and Military personnel.
Too bad so many LEO's can't say the same of supporting and respecting us civilians. Especially those of us who are CCW qualified. We have earned not only the RIGHT to carry concealed, but the RESPECT that goes with that right.
Last edited by wallew; April 10th, 2008 at 12:10 AM. Reason: removed profanity ENTIRELY
I'm a Renaissance man, retired gunsmith, retired NRA certified firearms instructor, chef, gardener, medic, computer whiz, philosopher, mechanic, bartender, janitor, and security specialist
Put a fork in it, because after that last post I think its DONE!!!!
An ounce of lead is worth 200lbs of cop.
I too have a lot of respect for LEO's who show the proper respect to me and others.
A lot of what was written in the above long post by wallew is absolutely true in my opinion and I am glad to see someone that has the experience and honesty to "Say it like it is".
Nice post WalleW, I agree with most of your points... but most of your well written and thought out post begs one question; What does any of that have to do with the price of tea in China?
There certainly are qualified gun people in the private sector, I've said many time before that LEO's are not firearms experts. Guns are a very small part of the job, and many would prefer guns not to be a part of the job at all. But that is far from the issues being discussed here.
"Just blame Sixto"
I do appreciate what you say. BUT my post goes DIRECTLY to the point of this thread.
The respect that every LEO demands and the respect that every CCW holder EARNED by going to the trouble of getting their permit, as many here have done. We jumped through many a legal hoop to get both the firearm AND the training necessary for our state government to issue us a CCW. Not to mention all the money we spent to get the CCW. All of which MOST LEO's ignore or are completely unaware of.
Yet when I hear complaints from officers who violate MY rights, and then fall back on the old saw that it's for the 'safety of the officer' I shudder. WE are not a gang banging, drug dealing perp. WE are upstanding citizens who went to great lengths to be completely legal in carrying our concealed firearms. WE earned the respect and that respect SHOULD be afforded to us by LEO's. Hey, we're on YOUR side.
That type of statement is like politicians saying the reason they passed a given piece of legislation was because 'it's for the children'. When EVER I hear a politician say that, I feel for my wallet.
Because what they REALLY MEAN IS, "I'M SPECIAL, I'M DIFFERENT, I DESERVE DIFFERENT TREATMENT BECAUSE OF MY STATION".
Sorry, but that is a false assumption.
I did NOT EVEN get into the abuses of police officers and WORSE YET are the abuses politicians FORCE police officers to perpetrate on the populace - gun control comes to mind. Noise ordinances that rely on the judgement of a single officer also comes to mind. Which, when I fought city hall down in Colorado Springs, us nasty old motorcyclists SPANKED the city council. Nor does it address the REALLY WEIRDO'S who impersonate police officers and pull people over and then 'mess' with them, which is begining to happen more frequently here in Colorado.
But it all boils down to this. If you WANT RESPECT, YOU HAVE TO GIVE RESPECT. The assumption that a CCW holder is a 'bad person' who may have done something bad since they were issued their CCW is completely bogus.
Do you have ANY IDEA HOW MANY CCW HOLDERS have been arrested, tried and been convicted of using a firearm in commission of a crime? About HALF the number of LEO's that fall into that category. Granted, both are a miniscule number, but you and your brothers REALLY need to understand that if YOU are stopping a CCW holder in a T-stop, you REALLY should give us the RESPECT YOU DEMAND WHEN YOU PUT ON YOUR UNIFORM. Because, like you, WE EARNED IT.
I'm a Renaissance man, retired gunsmith, retired NRA certified firearms instructor, chef, gardener, medic, computer whiz, philosopher, mechanic, bartender, janitor, and security specialist
I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop!!
Politically Incorrect Self Defense
Personally, I've only been pulled over once, in my entire life...and that was because my stereo was too loud. I handed over my Military I.D., CHL, and D.L. and the officer barely glanced at them before he handed them back and told me to turn my stereo down.
Personally, I would be very upset with being disarmed, especially as my normal attire is slacks and a dress shirt, therefore smart carry(that could get pretty tricky, since my EDC does not have a safety)...but I don't quite understand the holier than thou, "I have a permit, so you should trust me." argument.
You wouldn't be pulled over in the first place if you weren't breaking a law(ignoring for the moment the possibility of a road block or I.D. check which I am very much against).
So, my question is, you were breaking the law in the first place, how does the LEO know you are a responsible citizen and that your speeding/turn signal/expired registration/whatever is the only law you are going to be breaking.
To me this argument is summed up very simply...If you don't break the law, you won't have to worry about a LEO disarming you. If you do break the law and a LEO pulls you over, expect to be treated as a criminal.
So, in my opinion...Main Entry: criminal
Date: circa 1626
1 : one who has committed a crime
2 : a person who has been convicted of a crime
Get off your high horse, be responsible enough to ensure your tags are up to date, don't speed, use your blinker, and obey traffic signs...
If for some reason you are incapable or not responsible enough to do those simple things than you are probably not responsible enough to handle a gun, and a LEO has every right to disarm you. You have already proved yourself irresponsible once that day. Why should a LEO give you a chance to go for another?
If you are in this situation, you did do something bad, in fact, you did something illegal. You have complete power over this. Don't do anything illegal and you will not be pulled over and be forced to have 'your rights abused'But it all boils down to this. If you WANT RESPECT, YOU HAVE TO GIVE RESPECT. The assumption that a CCW holder is a 'bad person' who may have done something bad since they were issued their CCW is completely bogus.
"These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier
and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the
service of his country; but he that stands it now, deserves the
love and thanks of man and woman."
-- Thomas Paine (The American Crisis, No. 1, 19 December 1776)
I was speaking more to the constituents that thought that their license to carry a handgun meant something special after they were already found to have broken the law.
I'm glad that you are taking care of it, and I hope the officer shows up to the trial.
Hopefully, you can get her number.
Seriously, I hope that all ends up well, I had no problem with your response, and I thought it was very well handled. You thought so, too, or you wouldn't have called in a compliment.
Either way, for some guys to say they are 'special', because they have gone though background checks, fees, etc, and therefore deserve a greater amount of respect is absurd.
I applaud your efforts to keep things civil and I hope you don't get too much of a fine, but for people on this forum to say,
"Yeah, I know I was doing something illegal, but, come on, trust me, I have a concealed handgun license...I am an upstanding and responsible citizen, and I have thus proved so by breaking the law and providing you with a license."
Give me a break.
I have read this entire thread with interest. At the beginning, I was strongly against the officer's actions in the OP. Having read the LEOs' responses, I've changed my mind and I agree in principle with their ability to disarm the citizen who is being held in custody.
Yes, I've seen some cops who were jerks or just plain stupid, and there are stories aplenty about megalomaniacal boors who think that the privilege of going armed should be theirs alone. Unfortunately, such personnel problems plague every employer, and correcting them is an ongoing and never-ending process. But if I expect these men to handle what they do on a daily basis, keeping society fit to live in, then I'm not going to deny them the legal ability to "control the situation" until things are sorted out.
I went to buy some camouflage pants, but I couldn't find any.
Still I understand an officers concern. Lots of LEO do get shot and killed at traffic stops. It may very well be one of the most dangerous things a police officer has to do. I want my local LEO to go home safe and be on the job tomorrow looking out for me & mine.
On the flip side. How often has anyone with a concealed weapons permit shot a police officer? I would venture to say probably never. Having a concealed weapon permit does not justify treating anyone like a low life. I have had my gun taken away and I have had others just ask where it was, not to touch it and to keep my hands in sight. Either way the officer's attitude has a lot to do with how I perceive the event and how I perceive an event does make a difference. A simple polite statement of why my gun was taken (even though I know) makes it a lot different than when the officer is rude or acts as if my gun makes me a felony waiting to happen.
That is what I think some of the folks here are saying. We know that we are on the same side as the law enforcement officers that work for us and need not be treated like we are the enemy. Being civil to each other does not cost anyone anything. Sounds like your LEO was civil enough IMO.
Last edited by LongRider; April 10th, 2008 at 04:32 AM.
Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution
Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family