I Thought it was actually going down today and...DO NOT WAIT TO DRAW...

This is a discussion on I Thought it was actually going down today and...DO NOT WAIT TO DRAW... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by rmarkob I'm still trying to picture the chasee choosing THAT rig to carjack! Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hindsight.......

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Thread: I Thought it was actually going down today and...DO NOT WAIT TO DRAW...

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmarkob View Post
    I'm still trying to picture the chasee choosing THAT rig to carjack!
    Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hindsight....
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  3. #47
    Distinguished Member Array T Bone's Avatar
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    The "Ghetto Tuck" is when my cover garment/coat is pulled out of the way to expose the gun in it's holster. It makes the draw WAY quicker compared to having to lift the shirt, which may be stuck under or behind me.
    Ah, gotccha. I read that totally wrong. Thought you'd drawn the weapon, and ghetto tucked IT. Now I understand completely, preparation for the draw.

    As to under the leg, possibly superior to in the lap while the vehicle is still in motion. Just gives a minor bit of control over the weapon (got that from an article on shooting/reloading while driving if memory serves, I think it was from Chuck Taylor back in the 1980's...). But if your holster was accessible, that was the place for it, until time to draw (or place in your lap, doesn't sound like a bad thing).

    Pontiac. Fun town! Still, beware of BG's that look like GG's and vice versa
    Last edited by T Bone; May 19th, 2008 at 05:30 PM.
    Regards, T Bone.


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  4. #48
    Member Array HKP30's Avatar
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    cupcake, thank you for sharing the story.

    I'm not sure I would have involved myself in "the chase", however I'm pretty certain I'd have reacted similarly to you once the direction changed.

    For those in MN, all I can say is hopefully your state will see the light and model some future gun legislation around what we have in IN. Ohio managed to get a castle doctrine passed. With quite possibly the best additional clause.

    The bill also bars criminals from suing in civil court for injuries suffered in the act of committing crimes.
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  5. #49
    Senior Member Array Phillep Harding's Avatar
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    As I recall from the FBI/Miami shootout, the main reason most of the FBI agents got killed seemed to be a bad holster for car work. They pulled their hand guns and set them on the seat next to them, and lost the gun on the floor boards. (Nobody mentioned it, but the problem sort of glared.)

    I suggest that if the gun is easier to get to when tucked under a leg, that you need to rethink where you carry.

  6. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phillep Harding View Post
    As I recall from the FBI/Miami shootout, the main reason most of the FBI agents got killed seemed to be a bad holster for car work. They pulled their hand guns and set them on the seat next to them, and lost the gun on the floor boards. (Nobody mentioned it, but the problem sort of glared.)

    I suggest that if the gun is easier to get to when tucked under a leg, that you need to rethink where you carry.
    I've often thought about purchasing something like this to keep in the car for EXACTLY this kind of situation. It's designed to clip onto your belt at the 11:30-12:00 range. I would expect a fair amount of practice would have to be done to make sure you can draw without covering your own left arm with the muzzle as you present to the window. However having worked on drawing from a horizontal shoulder rig, this has to be orders of magnitude better.

    Mitch Rosen's CCR (Counter Carjacking Rig)

    The Counter Carjacking Rig™ is designed for the "working pro" who sits on surveillance for long periods of time or for the tactically aware driver who may need to access a handgun while seated behind the wheel. Our recommendation is to have your CCR™ in the glove box, and upon entering the vehicle, put it on and switch your weapon from whichever rig you might be wearing, such as an ARG™. This is a situation-specific cross-draw ONLY. Stitched sight rails plus dowel sight track.
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  7. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpaul View Post
    FYI on MN law
    609.065 Justifiable taking of life.

    The intentional taking of the life of another is not authorized by section 609.06, except when necessary in resisting or preventing an offense which the actor reasonably believes exposes the actor or another to great bodily harm or death, or preventing the commission of a felony in the actor's place of abode.
    Note the "OR." In MN, defense of others is allowed if
    (1) reluctant participant
    (2) unable to safely retreat
    (3) fear of great bodily harm or death [to others in this case], and
    (4) no lesser force option.

  8. #52
    Distinguished Member Array snowdoctor's Avatar
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    first impression...don't get involved..but i am sitting behind a computer...and thinking of it...i would probably do the same thing.
    what kind of gas mileage do you get with that hauler....and how big is the trailer?
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  9. #53
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by packin45 View Post
    Well, I hate to be the one to say it, but getting yourself involved in the situation was asking for trouble, and in a few different ways.

    I don't know about your state, but one of the criteria for a justified self-defense shooting in MN is being an unwilling participant in the situation. What you did was a very bad idea, especially for a permit holder. Had I done something like that in MN, and had to drop the BG when he came back for a little retribution, I'd likely be sitting in jail right now.
    If I got that right in NM it is illegal or at least perceived to be provocation to stop a scum bag from committing a crime or to impede his escape. That is the most pitiful thing I have ever heard. Required by law, to not bother the poor underprivileged felon trying to make a living or escape the consequences for their actions. Gotta just let em go, huh? Dang. I always think of WA as a touchy feely liberal pro thug state but it's not that bad yet. At least here it is OK to stop someone in the commission of a felony and or/ and apprehend them. Its OK to shoot them or use whatever force is necessary. Personally it is just not in me to let evil prevail because I stood by and did nothing. Just could not live like that. IMO that is just plain WRONG !!
    Now in this case I dunno most likely I would have called 911 and observed. Hard to make that when I was not there

    Quote Originally Posted by Cupcake View Post
    2. Mindset: If I had waited to draw until I decided that I needed to fire, there is NO WAY I could've drawn in time. Even if I was already ghetto-tucked, if I tried to draw after I saw a weapon for sure, I'd have been toast. Not maybe, absolutely. He was right there, heavy breathing distance from me with his hand possibly on a weapon. He could move, I was stuck.
    Not an instructor but I think you did OK. I have always interpreted that as meaning not to draw unless my intent is to shoot. Which does not mean I have to shoot but that is the one and only reason I draw. Time for talking is done, no need to brandish threaten or intimidate, if I am drawing I am in the process of shooting the threat. Things can change from the time I start to draw and the moment the trigger is pulled so that I may not need to fire. That does not change that fact that I decided to use deadly force to stop the threat.
    Last edited by LongRider; May 20th, 2008 at 04:33 PM. Reason: Change Correct NM to MN
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

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  10. #54
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    Glad you are okay. And it shows that it pays to be aware of your surroundings.
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  11. #55
    Member Array packin45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    If I got that right in NM it is illegal or at least perceived to be provocation to stop a scum bag from committing a crime or to impede his escape. That is the most pitiful thing I have ever heard. Required by law, to not bother the poor underprivileged felon trying to make a living or escape the consequences for their actions. Gotta just let em go, huh? Dang. I always think of WA as a touchy feely liberal pro thug state but it's not that bad yet. At least here it is OK to stop someone in the commission of a felony and or/ and apprehend them. Its OK to shoot them or use whatever force is necessary. Personally it is just not in me to let evil prevail because I stood by and did nothing. Just could not live like that. IMO that is just plain WRONG !!
    Now in this case I dunno most likely I would have called 911 and observed. Hard to make that when I was not there


    Yes; you have to be an unwilling participant in order for a self defense shooting to be justified. You also have to be in fear for your life or (extremely) great bodily harm, and you also have the duty to retreat when you're outside your home. You do not have the right to intervene in this kind of situation, doing something like that could cost you your gun, permit, and freedom, if a shooting actually were to take place.

    I think that you could shoot to stop the commission of certain felonies under limited circumstances (like defending my son against an attacker), but fear of prosecution is always on my mind when I'm carrying (I wouldn't be much good to my son if I were serving 3 to 5).

    Honestly, I would've maybe had my gun sitting in my lap, definately had the doors locked and windows up, but I'd have slouched down low in my seat and watched the show. Think about it- if the situation were actually what it appeared to be, the cops were already chasing the guy; calling 911 or otherwise trying to intervene probably wouldn't have accomplished anything. It's not like some dirtbags were pummelling the crap out of some poor guy on the side of the road or something....I just don't see what was so urgent about the situation that justified an armed civilian intervening in what was apparently police business.
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  12. #56
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by packin45 View Post
    Yes; you have to be an unwilling participant in order for a self defense shooting to be justified. You also have to be in fear for your life or (extremely) great bodily harm, and you also have the duty to retreat when you're outside your home. You do not have the right to intervene in this kind of situation, doing something like that could cost you your gun, permit, and freedom, if a shooting actually were to take place.
    In the OP's scenario I think he did the best he could at the time. As I said if it was me I may have done like you. Observe and tried to be a good witness. But than I was not there, maybe it was reasonable to take action. After I know for sure who the good guys are and what help is needed by them. I may have acted. Again, who knows I was not there, so I will never know if was reasonable to act or not. From what I read I would have watched.

    I am so sorry that you must live in such an oppressive environment. I can not even imagine living somewhere that you can not do the right thing and protect yourself, family, fellow citizens and your property except in the most dire circumstances. How standing up and doing the moral thing could be illegal is beyond me. Not doubting you at all. Just nothing like that here in Washington. If you are ever charged and you prove self defense or justifiable homicide, the state picks up all legal fee's lawyers, expert testimony, private investigator, process servers, lab reports, shrinks, whatever you need to defend yourself against the charges. I am getting to really like my home state more and more all the time maybe there is hope for WA after all.

    RCW 9A.16.050
    Homicide — By other person — When justifiable.

    Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:
    (1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or
    (2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he is.
    RCW 9A.16.040
    Justifiable homicide or use of deadly force by public officer, peace officer, person aiding.

    (1) Homicide or the use of deadly force is justifiable in the following cases:
    (a) When a public officer is acting in obedience to the judgment of a competent court; or
    (b) When necessarily used by a peace officer to overcome actual resistance to the execution of the legal process, mandate, or order of a court or officer, or in the discharge of a legal duty.
    (c) When necessarily used by a peace officer or person acting under the officer's command and in the officer's aid:
    RCW 9A.16.020
    Use of force — When lawful.

    The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:
    (1) Whenever necessarily used by a public officer in the performance of a legal duty, or a person assisting the officer and acting under the officer's direction;
    (2) Whenever necessarily used by a person arresting one who has committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer competent to receive him or her into custody;
    (3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;
    (4) Whenever reasonably used by a person to detain someone who enters or remains unlawfully in a building or on real property lawfully in the possession of such person, so long as such detention is reasonable in duration and manner to investigate the reason for the detained person's presence on the premises, and so long as the premises in question did not reasonably appear to be intended to be open to members of the public;
    (5) Whenever used by a carrier of passengers or the carrier's authorized agent or servant, or other person assisting them at their request in expelling from a carriage, railway car, vessel, or other vehicle, a passenger who refuses to obey a lawful and reasonable regulation prescribed for the conduct of passengers, if such vehicle has first been stopped and the force used is not more than is necessary to expel the offender with reasonable regard to the offender's personal safety;
    (6) Whenever used by any person to prevent a mentally ill, mentally incompetent, or mentally disabled person from committing an act dangerous to any person, or in enforcing necessary restraint for the protection or restoration to health of the person, during such period only as is necessary to obtain legal authority for the restraint or custody of the person.
    RCW 9A.16.110
    Defending against violent crime — Reimbursement.

    (1) No person in the state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting by any reasonable means necessary, himself or herself, his or her family, or his or her real or personal property, or for coming to the aid of another who is in imminent danger of or the victim of assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030.
    (2) When a person charged with a crime listed in subsection (1) of this section is found not guilty by reason of self-defense, the state of Washington shall reimburse the defendant for all reasonable costs, including loss of time, legal fees incurred, and other expenses involved in his or her defense. This reimbursement is not an independent cause of action. To award these reasonable costs the trier of fact must find that the defendant's claim of self-defense was sustained by a preponderance of the evidence. If the trier of fact makes a determination of self-defense, the judge shall determine the amount of the award.
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  13. #57
    Member Array Precision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by packin45 View Post
    I agree with that part of it 100%- my gun would have been out as well, especially if I were with my family. If you had been boxed in by traffic, hadn't honked the horn/tried to cut the guy off, and he had gone after you, I'm guessing it'd have been a lot closer to a good shoot. But with all the other traffic around, odds are slim that he would have singled out your car, if that was his intention.



    Not to pick on you, but you would probably have gone to jail in MN, had this escalated to a shooting. Stopping/rolling down the window = willing participation.
    Another reason I love living in Florida. My car is part of my "house" and thus qualifies under castle law. Meaning you mess with me in my car and I have no need to retreat and you are presumed to be threatening my life.

    Aside from the cold, another reason not to live in MN.

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