Carry Guide - Page 3

Carry Guide

This is a discussion on Carry Guide within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Puppy A recent article on ammunition indicated that in short barrel guns, like the popular Kel Tec PF and my own Kahr ...

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Thread: Carry Guide

  1. #31
    Member Array NaturalSelection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puppy View Post
    A recent article on ammunition indicated that in short barrel guns, like the popular Kel Tec PF and my own Kahr PM 9, the lighter bullets were a better choice than the 147 grain, because the slower velocity of the heavier bullet did not allow the expansion of JHP rounds. Any knowledge or comment?
    CLICK HERE and youll see that i also used to believe this too. my own testing has since proven (to me, anyway) that this would only apply to dated ammunition (like to original hydra-shok for example). modern ammunition (federal HST, corbon, gold dots, etc.) are not as dependant on velocity to expand reliably.

    i dont have the exact numbers in front of me at this time so im working off memory. using a glock 17 (service size 9mm) and a glock 19 (compact 9mm) both shooting 147 grain federal HST at standard pressure. the velocity of the bullet from the service size is moving at a comparable velocity at around 20 yards or so as the bullet leaving the compact at 3 feet. does that mean that the bullet from the service size glock will fail to expand reliably after 20 yards? absolutely not.

    my hesitance however, would be reliability issues in feeding. ive found that many pocket guns wont cycle heavier loads as reliably as they cycle lighter loads. if your weapon will cycle 147 grain loads reliably its what i would carry. ive never tested a kel tec but i have ran plenty of 147 grain loads through my walter PPS with expansion comparable to service weapons.

    if your weapon will cycle them reliably, federal has provided a perfect solution for anyone worried about velocity from pocket guns. the federal HST 147 grain is available in both standard and +P pressure.


  2. #32
    Member Array Puppy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalSelection View Post
    CLICK HERE and youll see that i also used to believe this too. my own testing has since proven (to me, anyway) that this would only apply to dated ammunition (like to original hydra-shok for example). modern ammunition (federal HST, corbon, gold dots, etc.) are not as dependant on velocity to expand reliably.

    i dont have the exact numbers in front of me at this time so im working off memory. using a glock 17 (service size 9mm) and a glock 19 (compact 9mm) both shooting 147 grain federal HST at standard pressure. the velocity of the bullet from the service size is moving at a comparable velocity at around 20 yards or so as the bullet leaving the compact at 3 feet. does that mean that the bullet from the service size glock will fail to expand reliably after 20 yards? absolutely not.

    my hesitance however, would be reliability issues in feeding. ive found that many pocket guns wont cycle heavier loads as reliably as they cycle lighter loads. if your weapon will cycle 147 grain loads reliably its what i would carry. ive never tested a kel tec but i have ran plenty of 147 grain loads through my walter PPS with expansion comparable to service weapons.

    if your weapon will cycle them reliably, federal has provided a perfect solution for anyone worried about velocity from pocket guns. the federal HST 147 grain is available in both standard and +P pressure.
    You make a good argument, but I still have questions.

    First you compare the Service vs tactical Glock, 5" barrel vs 4"; whereas the Kahr etc have only 3" barrels.

    Now you did specifically mention Hydr-Shock, but here is what I found for a Kahr with the 3" barrel.

    Black Hills 124-gr. JHP 1068 Avg. velocity 315 ft lbs Energy

    Federal No. P9HS2 147-gr. 845 Avg . Velocity 233 ft lbs Energy
    Hydra-Shock JHP

    Hornady No. 9025 115-gr. 1030 Avg. Velocity 272 ft lbs. Energy.
    XPT JHP

    Now granted I don't know how any of that relates to expansion but it does show that the heavier 147 grain bullet travels about 20% slower and has 35% LESS energy than the 124 gr. JHP.

    How confident are you that this rather large difference would not make a difference in expansion?

    Granted, the Black Hills is a + P and I don't think the Hydra-Shock is. What 147 grain ammo do you recommend?

  3. #33
    Distinguished Member Array T Bone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaturalSelection
    .....the 1911/BHP will indeed be included in my advanced carry guide, coming soon.
    Looking forward to the article, if it's as well done as this one, it'll be a treat!
    Regards, T Bone.


    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety". Benjamin Franklin

  4. #34
    Member Array NaturalSelection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puppy View Post
    the heavier 147 grain bullet travels about 20% slower and has 35% LESS energy than the 124 gr. JHP.
    simple energy means nothing as a basis for comparison unless comparing two bullets of the same caliber and weight. the lighter bullet will always be faster and it will always show higher simpler energy numbers. still, the heavier bullet will always penetrate deeper than the lighter, faster bullet with higher energy numbers. ill use the following guideline to demonstrate my point:



    the 9mm is firing a 147 grain .355" bullet at 1032 fps. the (downloaded) 357 sig is firing a 125 grain .355" bullet at 1319 fps. thats a difference of (roughly) 300 fps and a huge difference in simple energy yet the 9mm penetrated deeper than the downloaded 357 sig. a 357 sig loaded to what it is supposed to be (1450 fps) may or may not be enough to make up the difference but as clearly demonstrated the heavier bullet penetrated deeper. certainly the temporary cavity is larger with the 357 sig but temporary cavity is the least important of all factors. the same can be said of the .40. as you see in the image, the slower 180 grain .40 penetrated deeper than the lighter, faster 165 grain. this is not to say that the lighter loads arent adquate, but the heavier loads penetrate deeper and with shooting effectiveness being all about probabilities, i want every slight advantage i can get.

    once upon a time i believed that 950 fps was necessary for reliable expansion CLICK HERE to read my post on this very subject on this forum from two years ago. i no longer believe this as modern ammunition is designed to expand at lower velocities. ive seen .45 acp bullets at 680 fps that expanded just as well as those at 1000+ fps. velocity just isnt as important as it once was for expansion or penetration. certainly more velocity (comparing apples to apples) is always good, but not at the expense of bullet weight.

    several manufacturers are now producing ammunition specifically for short barreled weapons but i believe its nothing more than marketing to get you to buy their ammunition. ive yet to find any measurable difference in bullet peformance from my short barreled weapons.


    How confident are you that this rather large difference would not make a difference in expansion?
    i bet my life on it every day. the glock 23 (.40) on my hip right now is loaded with 180 grain federal HST. i have 165 grain HST on hand but the 180 grain loads penetrate deeper and expand just the same. the glock 19 i have is loaded with 147 grain federal HST +P. i have HST 124 grain +P loads on hand, but the 147 grain loads penetrate deeper and expand just the same.


    What 147 grain ammo do you recommend?
    without question, the federal HST is the "magic" bullet if there ever was one. federal limits it to LE but you can still get it from places like Welcome to Ammunition To Go! and a few others that ignore the federal (company, not government) policy. they offer the 147 grain in standard pressure as well as +P loads. either will serve you very well. if you cannot find HST i would find 147 grain ranger T. if you just cannot shoot 147 grain 9mm, the 125 grain corbon +P is readily available and actually exceeds many comparable loads (including the winchester) in +P+.
    Last edited by NaturalSelection; May 25th, 2008 at 01:13 AM. Reason: to point out .40 performance of the different weights in the image shown above. i over-looked that the first time through.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Array Old Sarge's Avatar
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    Nathan has one of the best websites going. Thanks a million for cutting thru to the chase, and telling it like it is. I've been a subscriber on his website for quite a while, and get tons of good info off it. Thanks Nathan!!!

  6. #36
    Member Array NaturalSelection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bender View Post
    Perhaps you could put it into a .pdf format for downloading and printing
    see http://media.concealedcarryforum.com/carryguide.pdf and i apologize for having taken so long.

  7. #37
    Member Array NaturalSelection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Sarge View Post
    Nathan has one of the best websites going.
    thank you sir.....but i have little to do with it. im just a guy with a web server. its you contributing members that make it what it is.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Array youngda9's Avatar
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    Nice carry guide. I like it.

    I do have a different opinion on one thing, the approx 1 inch penetration depth difference of the heavier 147gr bullet listed above is a small amt. Anything near 12 inches seems like plenty for a human, that's approx the width of my ribs at the mid point of my chest(I'm 6'2" and 215 lbs).

    I shoot a .40.
    I'll take the larger artery shredding temporary wound channel the 165 grain .40 bullet gives over the 180 grain, along with the much higher energy (as advertized 484ftLbs for 165Gr Golden Sabre vs 411.7ftLbs 180gr Golden Sabre), at the cost of very little penetration difference. The extra destroyed tissue and shredded blood vessels it takes to absorb 17% more energy seems like a good thing. According to this site the penetration difference is only about 0.2 inches if fired out of the same length barrel handgun:
    .40 S&W

    Cartridge : .40S&W 180gr Remington Golden Saber

    Firearm : Glock 27 with 3.5" barrel length

    Block calibration : All depths corrected (From 7.9cm @ 558 ft/sec)

    Shot 1 - Impacted at 915 ft/sec, penetrated to 11.5" and was recovered at 0.673" average diameter.

    Shot 2 - Impacted at 915 ft/sec, penetrated to 11.8" and was recovered at 0.669" average diameter.

    Shot 3 - Impacted at 936 ft/sec, penetrated to 12.2" and was recovered at 0.679" average diameter.

    Shot 4 - Impacted at 927 ft/sec, penetrated to 11.7" and was recovered at 0.664" average diameter.

    Shot 5 - Impacted at 928 ft/sec, penetrated to 11.8" and was recovered at 0.683" average diameter.

    Average = 11.8" penetration.


    Recoil-operated handgun with 3.46" barrel length
    Shot 4 - Remington 165gr Golden Saber (part #GS40SWA). Impacted at 994 ft/sec. Penetrated to 11.6" and was recovered at 0.661" average diameter.


    Recoil-operated handgun with 4.6" barrel length.
    165gr. Remington factory Golden Saber
    Penetrated 11.7 0.031”
    Expanded to 0.694 0.0005” average diameter.

    Average = 11.65" penetration.


    Where do you get your stats from?
    Speak softly, and carry a big stick.

  9. #39
    Member Array NaturalSelection's Avatar
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    my stats come from my own first hand testing shooting into wildlife cadavers. i dont know how these bullets react in gelatin in a laboratory but shooting 180 grain HST and 165 grain HST into cadavers (coyote, hog, etc.) the 180 grain loads penetrate (in many cases) several inches deeper. gelatin is one thing, but its another matter entirely when you impact bone and the heavier load maintains more momentum after hitting bone.

    as for the "tissue shredding" and higher energy numbers, it is proven time and time again that the temporary wound channel is the least important of all factors.

    im not in any way suggesting that the 165 grain load is "bad". it is in fact, quite impressive. my own testing however, has shown the 180 grain load to be the better penetrator (particularly after hitting bone) and i therefore make it my top recommendation. ultimately all that matters is that one has confidence in the load he carries and hopefully that confidence is earned after extensive first hand testing and not in anything read or heard.

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