That first shot - Page 2

That first shot

This is a discussion on That first shot within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The old double tap works fine if presented with a single target. DT'ing when there are two or more targets may just allow the other ...

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Thread: That first shot

  1. #16
    Member Array XD40's Avatar
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    The old double tap works fine if presented with a single target. DT'ing when there are two or more targets may just allow the other to get you. I read somewhere recently of a tactic for more than one attacker. Shoot one once (which one is your call based on proximity, threat etc) then double tap second target, return to first target for finishing shot if needed. They didn't say anything about more than two targets. My guess would be single shot each (there is that peskly first shot importance again) then return to targets as necassary to neutralize. Any thoughts?
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  2. #17
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    XD - I think we can say - ''Play it as you see it'' - if in fact thinking time is available!!

    Bottom line - making every shot count and count well - would be I think our ultimate wish and objective.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  3. #18
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    The double, pair, hammer (by any name) can be so fast that I would prolly use against each and every BG in the croud, with a triage mindset for priority. Makes me want to get two shoulder rigs and practice the two handed crossdraw like Bruce Willis in "Last Man Standing."
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

  4. #19
    Senior Member Array BlueLion's Avatar
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    Heck, I think nowadays if you are CCW and bad guy runs up he really does not expect you to be packing so once you pull it and use it he will probably already be footing out of there. Today on the news a a BG drove up on bus stop and attempted to rob an 11 year old boy of his sneakers. Well turns out the little boy had won them at school and they were fairly expensive. Well the fought back! He used his umbrella and drove the BG off. How about that.....no pistol just the will to survive and we fuss about 9, 38 or 45. Kids keep it simple....
    Listen, Think and React.....Nuff Said.....

  5. #20
    Distinguished Member Array RSSZ's Avatar
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    First shot(or two) does count a great deal IMO. When I go to the range to train with my carry weapon(Kimber),I set up all my stuff and when ready to get started,I start with a regular presentation with my carry weapon and double tap a target or two. I might start with my back to the target or with the target off to my right side at a 45-90 degree angle(I'm right handed). This reenforces the fact that I am ready with all the things that I routinely carry everyday. This is my "first shot" drill. I feel that it is very important. I do this with my students also.(one at a time,with extreme safety in mind)I don't give them a chance to get ready. Just present, and engauge.RIGHT NOW !! Yeah,I'm heartless,but it sure makes them aware and it gives them confidence.-----------Edit: Still never,repeat,NEVER,had a FTF or fire or a FTE from my tinie weenie 3" bbl gun. Imagine that! Must be just pure luck.------------
    Last edited by RSSZ; October 16th, 2005 at 02:45 PM.

  6. #21
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    RSSZ-I do miss the range practice. I would take 3 or 4 target stands and place them about 3 feet apart and offset each so that the range increased as you went from #1 to #4. You would be surprised at the miss and near miss rounds when offsettting targets. I don't know why but the drill was always a great one.
    Yes, miss the range dearly!!!
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  7. #22
    Member Array d2thomas's Avatar
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    shot placement, shot placement, shot placement!

    Considering I carry a 9mm [not a handcannon by any means], as Fjolnirsson put so well we need to be accountable for each round fired.
    S&W 5906
    ********
    si vis pacem, para bellum

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  8. #23
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    I love to kid the 9mm guys.(I carry a .45) It's just so damn easy. There's soooooo much that you can say 'bout that tiny little toy bullet.------With that said(don't ever tell anybody that I said this),I have more than a few friends/associates that carry 9's. They all can shoot them to the max. They can hit what they aim at and put 2-5 rds.on target very,very,fast. How much stopping power do you have at your disposal with 2-5 well placed hits WITH some of the great bullets that they make for a 9mm? I'll tell ya,I've seen some of these 9mm guys and gals shoot those tiny little bullets into tiny little groups,and they do it very fast. I would hate to be in the position that I would have to fight them on the street. Now---would I ever own a 9mm?? Hell no. But I wouldn't want to be hit by a couple of them COM either. So you 9 guys and gals out there,just keep practiceing,just keep puttin' more than one of them tiny little pills on target and toughten up to us .45 guys.---------

  9. #24
    Member Array d2thomas's Avatar
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    DUHUH, ME LIKE BIG BIG GUN....45 CALIPER, ER CALIBER!

    ..... much love tho
    S&W 5906
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    si vis pacem, para bellum

    protego communis bona

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array SARR001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by d2thomas
    DUHUH, ME LIKE BIG BIG GUN....45 CALIPER, ER CALIBER!

    .....
    Me too. "It's an 88 Magnum. It shoots through schools."
    "Life's tough......It's even tougher if you're stupid." -John Wayne

  11. #26
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    Theres also the saying, "slow is smooth, smooth is fast". I would rather take a extra second and place the first shot where it will do the most good.

    KC
    Fighting is not good, someone always get hurt
    Mr. Miyagi

  12. #27
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    I dug this up for your consideration. I think quite highly of the author.

    By S. P. Wenger
    The following article was originally written as a series for a shooting club newsletter. It is not intended to belittle those who enjoy the action pistol sports. Rather, it is an effort to create tactical awareness among those who may use a firearm in self-defense by comparing examples from the different arenas. The article has been published previously in the SMITH & WESSON ACADEMY NEWSLETTER..

    DOUBLE TAPS: A staple of the IPSC crowd, the double tap has two sets of problems on the street:

    When faced with a single assailant the best course is to shoot until the threat ceases. If the assailant goes into surrender mode after the first shot, the second shot is no longer justifiable. If the assailant is still charging you it is foolish to pause after the second shot.

    When faced with multiple assailants it makes more sense to put a round into each aggressor as quickly as possible, then go back and place more rounds into anyone who is still a threat. About ten years ago there was actually an incident in the Dallas-Fort Worth area where an IPSC-shooting cop went up against three assailants. He double-tapped the first two and was shot and killed by the third. Had he shot each assailant once initially he might have had a better chance of prevailing.

    SCORING BY THE CLOCK: Virtually all of the action pistol sports use a timer. Speed is certainly a useful attribute in a gunfight, although it is worth remembering the words of Bill Jordan, “Speed is fine but accuracy is final.”

    I’m not trying to discourage people from developing speed in placing accurate fire on the target. My concern is when rewarding the shortest time over a course of fire encourages people to do things like leaving cover and reloading on the move. If the cardboard targets or steel plates were shooting back, would you want to leave cover with an empty gun? Even if you have a high-capacity gun and it isn’t empty yet, wouldn’t you rather have the gun fully loaded when circumstances dictate your move to the next piece of cover? What if you get shot in the leg and can’t make it to the next piece of cover?

    MOVING TO COVER: Most sport shooters try to shorten the distance to the target to make the shot easier. Couple this with shooting against the clock, then set up a stage where the shooter starts in the open and has to move to cover which is somewhere downrange. Most competitors will run directly to the point where they intend to shoot, on a straight line.

    Years ago the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center disseminated a concept known as the “FLETC L.” If you’re really under fire, you want to get the cover between you and your assailant as quickly as possible. Move laterally to get behind the cover, then turn, making an “L,” if you need to move closer to the cover.

    DISTANCE FROM COVER: Most sport shooters try to shorten the distance to the target to make the shot easier. Most sport shooters have also learned to use “barricades” to gain support to steady the gun. One IPSC-style shooting academy teaches resting the back of the support hand on the side of the barricade when shooting from the gun-hand side of cover.

    First of all, this technique will usually expose greater than 50% of your body to the target, but that’s all right when your target is just a piece of buff-colored cardboard. Secondly, if the target and the cover were real, shots fired by the target could “skip” off the side of the cover, such as a wall surface parallel to the direction of the incoming fire, and strike you if you were within six feet of the cover. For this reason people who train for the real world generally try to leave at least six feet of space between them and cover which is large enough to permit it.

    LATERAL FAULT LINES: To protect the competitor from hostile fire from cardboard or steel targets, most action shooting sports which use cover in scenarios place fault lines to the side of the cover. If your foot strays over the fault line you lose points. If your head and body hang out there, that’s okay.

    Cardboard and steel targets generally stay in one place whereas people intent on harming you move around. If you’re in an upright position it’s not likely that your foot will project noticeably wider than another part of your body. People who train to deal with targets that shoot back will usually “slice the pie.” This means that if they are approaching a doorway or a corner they will stay back about six feet, keep the gun in a low ready position of some sort and inch themselves past the edge of the cover. Every inch yields a new fan or pie-slice of view and if a threat is found in one of these slices, the gun rises and the shot is taken. If they were to insist on hiding the feet while incrementally exposing head and body, they would merely place themselves off balance at a time when balance might be very valuable.

    RIGHT TO LEFT OR LEFT TO RIGHT: Most right-handed sport shooters, when faced with a bank of targets, will shoot them from left to right.

    When faced with real threats, you want to shoot the most immediate threat first. This is going to be a split-second judgment, but those come easier if you have dealt with them in training. However, in cases where two or more threats are of comparable urgency and similar distance, it makes sense to protect your gun side first. An awful lot of gunshot wounds are to the gun hand, the arm of the gun hand or the shoulder of the gun hand. Eliminating or reducing the threat on your gun side increases the likelihood of being around to finish the fight. For a right-handed shooter this means that when you’ve got a bank of targets it makes more sense to shoot from right to left.
    ---
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

  13. #28
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    Many very astute observations mentioned there Gardner - good reminders for us all IMO as to how we think and act in a genuine situation. Indeed many competition techniques would get us killed.

    I practice on my own way differently from when I shoot IDPA - much as anything to make sure some of the ''bad habits'' do not get too ingrained.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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