Drew last night.....thoughts
This is a discussion on Drew last night.....thoughts within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Yesterday evening my wife called me after work, she needed to pick up a prescription and we were going to get some dinner afterwards. We ...
April 29th, 2008 12:21 PM
Drew last night.....thoughts
Yesterday evening my wife called me after work, she needed to pick up a prescription and we were going to get some dinner afterwards. We agreed to meet at the drug store. I got there a little early and was parked waiting for her to arrive. I was backed into a parking space with my back to a 4 lane road. I had the windows down and was listening to Dave Ramsey on the radio. I heard a collision behind and to my right. I turned and looked, I see a mini van had rear ended a white Lexus. The Lexus pulls into the drug store lot, but the van keeps going.
I get out of my car to get the van plate number and call 911. As I am exiting the car the van proceeds to run into 4 additional vehicles, he is trying to squeeze between to lanes of stopped traffic. He effectively gets lodged between 2 cars and cannot proceed any farther. The driver then jumps out of the van and starts running away.
I give chase immediately and am yelling for him to stop. He crosses 4 lanes of east bound traffic and runs behind a convenience store. I continue to chase him. As I round the corner of the c-store I see him come out from behind a dumpster and continue to run north. I continue to chase him, I am yelling for him to stop. We are now behind a bank and he is in the bushes. I don't know if he fell or if he is trying to hide, but I tell him to stay were he is.
By now I have actually dialed 911 and am waiting for the operator to answer. He is still on the ground and I am standing about 7 yards away giving him loud verbal commands to stay on the ground. At this point he gets up and puts his hands in his pockets. He is now coming straight at me. I tell him again to stay where he is. I also draw my Kimber and click the safety off.
I have the 911 operator on the phone and tell her where we are, what happened and that I have the suspect at gun point. The operator asks me why I have a gun. I tell her I have a CWP, she then asks me if I am a security guard and why do I have a gun. I think I told her because I have the right to carry a gun and that I am Concealed Weapons Permit holder. By now he has taken his hands out of his pockets and he has his cell in one hand and nothing in the other. He is also calling 911 to say that someone is trying to shoot him.
By now several other citizens, including my wife, have come on the scene and I don't feel at this point that he is a physical threat so I reholster my Kimber. The suspect continues to walk across the parking lot and several people are now on the phone with 911, including the suspect.
Another citizen then comes up behind the suspect and tackles him. He pins his arms behind him and the suspect is face down in the parking lot. He is trying to struggle, so I put my foot on the back of his neck to keep him still.
The police arrive about 3 minutes later and cuff the guy, do a quick search and place him in the back of the police car. At this point the police are taking my information and the information from one other witness. The arresting officer offers to give me a ride back to my car as it is about a half block away. While we are riding back the officer asked if I had already holstered my gun by the time he got there because he didn't see it. I told him that I had. He said that I had 'done good'.
The entire situation happened very quickly and my wife said that if 'freaked her out' to see me with my gun drawn. She has grown more accustomed to me carrying, but is still a little gun shy (pun intended). My question for you folks is, was I too hasty in drawing my gun? At the moment I didn't think so and I still don't now, but I am not sure. I would like to get some input from members of this board as I respect the opinions and ideas of its members. Thanks.
April 29th, 2008 12:21 PM
April 29th, 2008 04:52 PM
I think the officer answered your question.
Originally Posted by keydet90
You walked away unharmed. BG had already shown himself to be a danger to others by his driving. You didn't know what was coming out of his pockets. Based on his irrational behavior, a reasonable person would consider him a threat.
Congrats on staying safe and aware.
He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
April 29th, 2008 04:55 PM
Probably not what you're looking to hear, but I'd give you an "F" on this one, a "D-" at best.
In a situation like you describe, the best course is to call 911 and be a good witness.
You were anything but a reluctant participant to this, and really put yourself at great risk bodily, criminally and civilly.
As for the cop's attaboy for you, he'd be the same one cuffin' and stuffin' you had this all gone south.
I am thankful that this all turned out well, but unless you have superhero powers, I'd recommend that in similar situations you draw your cell phone, NOT your Kimber.
"It's a big gun when I carry it, it is also a big gun when I take it out” – Clint Smith
April 29th, 2008 04:57 PM
Awful nice of you, but quite a dangerous stunt. You were not even involved, yet took chase after a known felon.
Treat me good, I'll treat you better. Treat me bad, I'll treat you worse.
April 29th, 2008 04:58 PM
The drawing of your weapon was IMO justified when he reached in to his pocket. As far as chasing him, I don't think that was very wise. You could have rounded a corner and been ambushed by this thug and your wife would be a widow now. Glad everything worked out though.
Off topic. Did I go through a time warp. I posted this at 10:58 my time, but it says it was at 2:58. Strange.
April 29th, 2008 05:03 PM
I like your sentiments, But your dang lucky to be alive.
quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
April 29th, 2008 05:10 PM
I'm glad things turned out ok, but your best option would have been to remain where you were and be a good witness. Police officer can often get the name of the person involved by the license plate and even more often the criminal is dumb enough to stay in the area long enough to get caught. By chasing after him you put yourself at risk over a couple of dented up cars. Not always a good idea. Just remember that the safety of you and your family should always come first.
"All war is deception" --Sun Tzu
April 29th, 2008 05:13 PM
I think you did fine. I'm glad there are responsible citizens like you out there.
Don't think what you did was wrong in any way just because others are critical of your decision. Most people do not believe that any opinion or position other than their own is valid or reasonable. Common sense is anything but common.
I agree that you took a huge risk, one that I would not have taken myself. But as I said - that does not in any way reflect poorly upon you. It probably reflects poorly upon me in reality. Remember, this guy may not have been caught if it were not for you. The van could have been stolen and had nothing in it to identify the suspect, and this guy could have moved on to commit further crimes and endanger more lives.
"Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington
April 29th, 2008 05:16 PM
Well, I wanted to post before you got all the responses saying you should of been a good witness, but I guess DC went down for a few minutes and my post didn't go through.
Anyway, I wanted to say on the entire situation. Many others, would have not gotten involved and to them I don't have much of anything good to say.
No, you are not responsible for everybody else, or anything else besides you. I will agree with that. But my life, and your life, here in the U.S. is a little safer now because YOU decided to get involved, and for that I thank you. Your wife is safer now because somebody who would ram other vehicles while trying to get away is off the streets. For those that give you an 'F' for possibly endangering yourself, I believe are very short sighted.
The streets are ours, or at least they should be. 100-200 years ago the people who are telling you that you should not have gotten involved would of been run out of town. There was a time in this country's history when honor, integrity and courage meant something. It's sad to say that time seems to have passed...for now.
One of the favorite tag lines that members here seem to quote is "When seconds count, the cops are only minutes away."
Well, what goes hand in hand with that, is that the police cannot be everywhere, at everytime. Sometimes us lowly civilians have to get involved to ensure our streets are safe and to help ensure BG's do not get away with endangering other people. The man you helped to apprehend was a danger to everyone around him. So, again
Now for my armchair quarterbacking...
I believe you may of holstered your weapon too soon. If the man did in fact have a deadly weapon in his pocket, then after you holstered he could of used that chance to retrieve it. You did not know the threat was gone, and in fact, I believe there is more of a reason to believe the threat is higher after he was surrounded by people. At that point, he knew he was caught, and he obviously had what he felt was a really good reason to want to get away. As you were the one responsible for him getting caught, it would not be unheard of for him to lash out at you.
The only other thing I can armchair quarterback is the fact that you were arguing with the 911 operator while holding a BG at gunpoint. I applaud you on calling 911, but once the operator started arguing about 2nd amendment rights, I would probably have kept the phone on, but put it in my pocket. I believe it was an unnecessary distraction.
All in all, great job, and I hope they put the guy away for a long, long time.
As I occasionally visit OK with my wife, I would like to thank you for helping to ensure this man is no longer on the streets.
April 29th, 2008 05:17 PM
I think you were very fortunate this turned out as well as it did. You risked a lot, both tactically and legally. With due respect I'd say your actions were impulsive and unwise.
April 29th, 2008 05:23 PM
I witnessed a hit and run about a year ago and I too chased down the driver (not on foot, he stayed in his vehicle) to box him in with another witness who also pursued the driver and together we were able to force him to the side of the road. So i understand how you're feeling after something like that happens.
Would I also have chased this guy down had he gotten out of his vehicle?
At the time, YES! Not maybe try and engage him but keep a watch from a distance to let police know where he is/was running.
Would it be the smartest thing to do?
Well, that's what is being debated...
But you DID choose to chase and luckily things worked out alright for you. I think your draw was totally acceptable and appropriate given the circumstances of what happened.
I still commend you on helping and applaud the way most things were done.
I think those that have the mentality of 'i only protect myself and don't get involved' don't understand what a true sheepdog really is supposed to do. Does this mean be stupid? no. Does it mean to help stop those who would take advantage and abuse the sheep? YES!
I think you did just that today.
"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
April 29th, 2008 05:26 PM
Given the circumstances (suspect's flight and subsequent behavior), I think you were very justified in drawing your weapon. I'm glad you didn't have to fire though because I think you could have been in for a world of trouble if you had. Giving chase was, IMO, very poor judgment. Don't get me wrong, I would not only be a good witness if 5 gang-bangers were beating a woman for her purse, I would take an active role in stopping them. But this was a traffic accident. You would have been much better served by rendering aid to any victims than giving chase to the driver. His prints would be all over the inside of the van and given his flight from the scene, I'd bet they are in the system. As a CCH holder, I think that I have some duty to assist others if their life is in danger but I'm not the police and have no duty or right to go chasing after someone fleeing the scene of a crime. I'm glad you ended up unharmed but it could have turned out much worse.
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April 29th, 2008 05:29 PM
Couldn't have been said better Jimmy.
Originally Posted by JimmyC4
April 29th, 2008 05:33 PM
keydet90 great job. Considering the speed and unknowns this thing had, you acted quickly, decisively, and responsibly. Thanks.
+1 to what Kerbouchard said about getting involved. We need more people who will stand up to this sort of thing. Yes, it may put you at temporary greater risk, but it is good for the common good.
"a reminder that no law can replace personal responsibility" - Bill Clinton 2010.
April 29th, 2008 05:37 PM
I also wanted to add: If you ever get down to Dallas, let me know and I'll buy you lunch.
Good job. It's good to know that there are still people out there who take an active interest in the safety of their community.
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