Confronted with No Guns Signage...

This is a discussion on Confronted with No Guns Signage... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Went to see my doctor today for my yearly visit. His office is in a medical building attached to a hospital. The building had signs ...

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Thread: Confronted with No Guns Signage...

  1. #1
    Member Array Goel's Avatar
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    Confronted with No Guns Signage...

    Went to see my doctor today for my yearly visit. His office is in a medical building attached to a hospital. The building had signs "no guns" pursuant to the state 30.0.6 statute here in Texas. However, this is not legal signage in Texas. The statute states that someone entering is only put on notice to not carry one of three ways: (1) The full 30.0.6 statute must be posted at every door in two colors with 1 inch letters and in both English and Spanish, or (2) Verbal notification must be given, or (3) The full 30.0.6 statute must be handed out on a piece of paper in English and Spanish. The sign at the medical building mentioned the statute in English and Spanish, but did not cite it pursuant to the requirements of the statute - ie. not a legal sign here in Texas. SO..Do you enter carrying anyway? Do leave your gun in your car? Get a new doctor?
    I am not saying what I did. I would like your input.
    Kimber Pro CDP II

    "Though defensive violence will always be 'a sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." St. Augustine A.D. 354-430

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  3. #2
    Ex Member Array SoFloAuthor's Avatar
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    I don't push issues....if there's a sign, I leave it secured in my car or....I leave with my rig on my hip.

  4. #3
    VIP Member Array tns0038's Avatar
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    The way I see it is you have two issues.

    Visiting the Doctor

    When I go to see the Doc I always lock my pistol in the car or carry a pocket pistol. The whole disrobe thing and carrying a sidearm does not go together.

    Your pistol is supposed to be concealed, and having to disrobe would mean the pistol would be or at the very least could be visible, and it might make someone uncomfortable.

    As to silly, un-legal “No firearms” signs

    I never pay any attention to them. Again it’s concealed so no one will ever know.

  5. #4
    Distinguished Member Array Reborn's Avatar
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    What has happen is that you may not have broken a CHL law but a trepassing law. If you don't care if you change doctor than change. I have a pro gun doctor.
    Psalms 144:1
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  6. #5
    Senior Member Array HowardCohodas's Avatar
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    My children taught me and my usual attitude is "It is easier to get forgiveness than permission." However, when guns are involved I think the equation my change and not in my favor if you are forced un unconceal. Visiting the doctor is tricky unless you know his attitude toward CCW. If I know I don't have to disrobe, it changes the calculus.
    Howard
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  7. #6
    Member Array Goel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reborn View Post
    What has happen is that you may not have broken a CHL law but a trepassing law. If you don't care if you change doctor than change. I have a pro gun doctor.
    How would it be a tresspassing violation to carry in a place that has not legally posted a "no carry" sign?
    Kimber Pro CDP II

    "Though defensive violence will always be 'a sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." St. Augustine A.D. 354-430

  8. #7
    Distinguished Member Array Reborn's Avatar
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    If you look in the Texas CHL book under the trespassing laws you can read thru it. At the instructors schools DPS says that the Attorney General will charge a CHL holder with trespassing if by any sign (legal or not) verbal or written you are trespassing.
    Last edited by Reborn; April 30th, 2008 at 04:23 PM. Reason: spelling
    Psalms 144:1
    Blessed be the Lord my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight.
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  9. #8
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    Array RETSUPT99's Avatar
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    In Florida, signs mean nothing...
    Other places have their own legal definitions of 'signs'...

    If I'm not illegal, my gun stays in the CCW position...

    Stay armed...stay legal...stay safe!
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  10. #9
    Member Array Goel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reborn View Post
    If you look in the Texas CHL book under the trespassing laws you can read thru it. At the instructors schools DPS says that the Attorney General will charge a CHL holder with trespassing if by any sign (legal or not) verbal or written you are trespassing.
    Thanks. I'll check that out.
    Kimber Pro CDP II

    "Though defensive violence will always be 'a sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." St. Augustine A.D. 354-430

  11. #10
    Ex Member Array Yoda's Avatar
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    Hospital and Nursing Homes in Texas

    They are on the "if posted with 30.06 signs" list as unlawful for the trespassing penal code. This means that if they are not posted at each entry theoretically it is legal to enter when duly licensed.

    Also in the code for the hospitals and nursing homes is a requirement to post a sign. The code that requires signs for hospitals and nursing homes does not go into the detail provided by the 30.06 requirement and it does not reference that requirement.

    Therefore, aside from "they are supposed to have posted proper signage" hospitals and nursing homes are in the same category as amusement parks, churches and government meetings..i.e., if no 30.06 sign then it is legal. (reference PC46.035) Texas Penal Code - Section 46.035. Unlawful Carrying Of Handgun By License Holder - Texas Attorney Resources - Texas Laws

  12. #11
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    I'm just asking for clarification... the sign did not read:


    "PURSUANT TO SECTION 30.06, PENAL CODE (TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF A LICENSE TO CARRY A CONCEALED HANDGUN) A PERSON LICENSED UNDER SUBCHAPTER H, CHAPTER 411, GOVERNMENT CODE (CONCEALED HANDGUN LAW), MAY NOT ENTER THIS PROPERTY WITH A CONCEALED HANDGUN."

    "CONFORME A LA SECCIÓN 30.06 DEL CÔDIGO PENAL (TRASPASAR PORTANDO ARMAS DE FUEGO) PERSONAS CON LICENCIA BAJO DEL SUB-CAPITULO H, CAPITULO 411, CODIGO DE GOBIERNO (LEY DE PORTAR ARMAS), NO DEBEN ENTRAR A ESTA PROPIEDAD PORTANDO UN ARMA DE FUEGO."
    Is that what you are saying?

    ETA:

    PENAL CODE CHAPTER 30. BURGLARY AND CRIMINAL TRESPASS

    § 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY
    CONCEALED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the
    license holder:
    (1) carries a handgun under the authority of
    Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another
    without effective consent; and
    (2) received notice that:
    (A) entry on the property by a license holder
    with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
    (B) remaining on the property with a concealed
    handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.
    (b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice
    if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to
    act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written
    communication.
    (c) In this section:
    (1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section
    30.05(b).
    (2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by
    Section 46.035(f).
    (3) "Written communication" means:
    (A) a card or other document on which is written
    language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06,
    Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed
    handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411,
    Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this
    property with a concealed handgun"; or
    (B) a sign posted on the property that:
    (i) includes the language described by
    Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
    (ii) appears in contrasting colors with
    block letters at least one inch in height; and
    (iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner
    clearly visible to the public.
    I'm not seeing where they're required to post at every door. Maybe it's just me.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  13. #12
    VIP Member Array crzy4guns's Avatar
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    In Kansas anytime you see a sign that has a picture of a pistol (usually a Beretta 92 for some strange reason) inside a red circle with a red slash through it, that means no firearms on the premises. You could be charged with a misdemeanor crime and have your concealed carry license revoked. If I am going to the doctor and his building, office suite or whatever has that sign, then I will leave my gun in the car. I have had visits with a doctor that I thought that I was not going to have to disrobe (scary sight) and wound up doing so anyway. So be careful, especially if you live in Kansas.
    Last edited by crzy4guns; April 30th, 2008 at 05:54 PM.

  14. #13
    Member Array swift's Avatar
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    In Arizona you can only be charged with trespassing for ignoring a no guns allowed sign if someone discovers you are carrying, tells you to leave, and you refuse. If I understand correctly, it even takes one additional step - you refuse to leave, property owner calls police, Police arrive & ask you to leave, and you still refuse.

    I walk by no guns allowed signs whenever I see them. Since my gun is concealed nobody is the wiser. If by some unlucky chance I were ever discovered & asked to leave, I would simply leave. No harm, no foul.

    I'd rather deal with being discovered & asked to leave, than to yell at myself that I'm such an idiot for obeying the no guns sign if I were ever to need my gun & it was stuck in my car completely useless to me. Not to mention the risk of theft from within the car as car break ins & theft are very common.

    This does not apply to places in Arizona where the law says it is illegal to carry such as School zones, courthouses, jails, bars, etc - you can go straight to jail for that - not worth the risk in my book.

    This is just my opinion though, not legal advice of course as I am certainly not a lawyer. There are only about 5 lawyer jokes that I am aware of, all the rest are simply factual statements that happen to be funny. :)
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  15. #14
    VIP Member Array David in FL's Avatar
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    Sounds like it's up to you, since the sign doesn't meet the legal requirements of 30.06.

    FWIW.....no such sign in FL, but one of the few places I personally choose to disarm is the Dr. I lock it in the car.

  16. #15
    Distinguished Member Array Reborn's Avatar
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    PC 30.05 Criminal Trespass. (a) A person commits an offense if he enters or remains on or in property, including an aircraft or other vehichle, of another without effective consent or he enters or remains in a builiding of another without effective consent and he:
    (1) had notice that the entry was forbidden: or
    (2) received notice to depart but failed to do so.
    (b) For puposes of this section;
    (1) 'Entry" means the intrusion of the entire body.
    (2) "Notice" means:
    (A) oral or written communication by the owner or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner:


    This is on page 31 of the Texas CHL book which can be downloaded at the DPS web site. I was told during my instructor classes that because the law doesn't state just what the oral or written communication is; it is trespassing. Its the old CATCH 22.
    Last edited by Reborn; April 30th, 2008 at 04:56 PM. Reason: spelling
    Psalms 144:1
    Blessed be the Lord my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight.
    Senior Instructor for Tactical and Defensive of Texas
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