A mindset thing

A mindset thing

This is a discussion on A mindset thing within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Those who may have followed or be following my assistance to Sue with her recent handgun aquisition and training may be interested to hear how ...

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Thread: A mindset thing

  1. #1
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    A mindset thing

    Those who may have followed or be following my assistance to Sue with her recent handgun aquisition and training may be interested to hear how I dealt with one (main) aspect of mindset - tho I doubt it is in any way original.

    I spoke in depth to Sue - as I would to anyone considering carry. I had to establish whether she could sleep easy with the knowledge that, if she had to use her gun then like as not - she may well take a life. Could she handle that? Her first answer was a ''yes'' but not a very positive one. I was not convinced.

    We talked further and when I actually presented her with the structure of a lethal force situation - she was able to realize that she would be the secondary component - the defender - if you will, the enforced responder as she would be protecting her life.

    Bottom line question I put was - ''who started it''?? By which I mean, she or anyone carrying - is forced into a situation by another once all retreat options are used up - it is a scenario of the BG's choosing and so consequences are thus due to him for that express reason.

    She thought further and agreed - indeed, she would be the one ''boxed in'' - ''in a corner'' - and so her decision would be totally mandated by the choice of that other. Therefore were there to be a loss of life - it would be, even if of her doing, merely a response that was necessary.

    By time we had finished discussing this she was decidedly at ease with the whole concept and I felt she would be able to face anything should it occur.

    I do regard mindset as essential for folks to get straight - otherwise they may freeze or just delay a response - which could be fatal.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    We're so conditioned by society to be passive victims, sometimes we have to search our own selves and figure out, no, it's not okay to go along with it when someone tries to hurt us.

    And once you realize that, the thought of someone trying to prey on you should really, really piss you off. And well it should. If only everyone had that attitude, goblins would be on the endangered species list.

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    Senior Member Array tanksoldier's Avatar
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    It helps to have pre-identified conditions, at least for me. As a Soldier, when someone crosses the line of my ROE where I can employ deadly force I see it as a GOOD thing. In a military situation deadly force is the simplest and easiest problem solver you have. There's an old saying: "Any problem can be resolved with a sufficient application of high explosive". I don't have to deal with the "political" results... better paid individuals than I handle that. As long as I'm within my ROE I'm good.

    As a civilian CCWer stateside I DO have to deal with the politics even if I'm within the "civilian ROE"... which is suprisingly loose here in Colorado. No retreat required anywhere of any kind, and if the BG is actually IN your house he has no legal protection whatsoever. Recent case in Denver: Couple finds BG in the house, beat him senseless with baseball bat, take BG's knife and stab him with it, killing him, AFTER he is incapacitated by the bat. DA brings charges, judge throws them out... BG entered house illegally, residents REASONABLY believe he intends to commit a crime therin _of_any_kind_ (and whoenters house in an illegal manner just to look around?) you can kill him even if he isn't a threat at all. Now, I'm not looking to kill people just because I can... a BG who's in my house and OBVIOUSLY not a threat whatsoever can live... but if I have the slightest doubt he's a goner.

    Outside my house I've decided that I'll get involved in whatever comes along, in whatever way the situation requires; a call to 911 or the termination of several BGs. I'm not going to let someone get the crap kicked out if them or killed because I'm afraid of the legal consequences to me. As a CCWer it's my duty to understand the relevant laws. I think I understand the law and use of force well enough to stay legal, and I have some experience with "rapidly developing" situations. As long as I can articulate why I felt threatened I'm good, I'm within my "civilian ROE"... and, at least in Colorado, confronting a criminal dosn't count as "escalating" or "provoking"... and no lawsuits after a good shoot either.
    "I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

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    Chris - The way I deal with this is an explaination that it is the BG who causes the use of deadly force. You, as the defender, do not make the decision to use deadly force, that decision is made by the BG, his actions and/or behavior.

    I have also had to come up with a way to make most women realize that they are capable of killing. If you ask most women whether or not they could kill another, their reply is frequently, No. I ask, even if they were threatening your life? They hem and haw. I then ask if they have children and those who reply that they do I ask, what if you had a gun and someone was threatening the life of your child? That's the moment most realize that they are capable if generally unwilling. I continue and explain that we are all unwilling. That's it's not in our nature to want to kill, (other than hunting, of course )
    Heroes are people who do what has to be done, when it has to be done, regardless of the consequences

    "I like when the enemy shoots at me; then I know where the ******** are and can kill them."
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    DE OPPRESSO LIBER

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    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    It Is a Hard thing to try to explain to someone when they can or not shoot .. Right now here in Michigan we have to let someone empty the house if there not threating us no castle doctrine here yet there working on it ..

    I like Acp said find working with women and can you shoot someone to be the hardest . Again using the Children aspect works..

  6. #6
    Member Array Mongo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    I do regard mindset as essential for folks to get straight - otherwise they may freeze or just delay a response - which could be fatal.
    +100

    I believe a person better wrap his or her mind around the reality of CCW well before they apply for a permit. Many times it may come from real life experience "when that happened, if I was carrying, what would I have done".

    I have all the faith in the world that my lady will use her head and, if necessary, use her gun. I will do the same.

    The reality of the aftermath of a defensive gun use should be understood at the onset of the CCW thought. Once that is accepted, I believe you can go forward.

  7. #7
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    yep, now keep working on her P95. An aggressive defensive mindset may be needed , especially if there are multiple BG's. Maybe have her go thru her house considering tactics , depending on her location and other occupants.

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    It is a difficult thing. My wife has killed someone, and when she got her CCW she didn't carry for the first year. She didn't think she could actually pull the trigger when the time came.

    Knowing that I told her not to carry until she knew she could. Well some threatening situations made her realize that yes she did have the mindset to pull the trigger when the time came, and she started carrying. So sometimes it takes time for the mindset to develop. I tell husbands who want their wives to carry to take their time and let their wife make the decision. Pushing them into it could have far worse results.

    -Scott-

  9. #9
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    Great posts - thx guys.
    Maybe have her go thru her house considering tactics
    Rocky - I have already asked her and Brad to think about this - in fact my first mention was as much as anything based round rule#4 - knowing in their house just what was where when imagining a bullet travelling thru wall etc.

    Logical extension to that is for her, them really, to run thru mentally taking into account points of possible ingress, concealment and any true cover.

    Next time we speak I shall reinforce a lot of things - keep her on her toes and up to speed plus more of same at next training session. I forgot to mention in my starting post - my reference to her (same to my wife) the need and usefulness of raw anger if attacked - making use of the feeling of violation to turn that to one's advantage and so be more easily resolute to NOT be harmed.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  10. #10
    New Member Array B. Brown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by acparmed
    I have also had to come up with a way to make most women realize that they are capable of killing. If you ask most women whether or not they could kill another, their reply is frequently, No. I ask, even if they were threatening your life? They hem and haw. I then ask if they have children and those who reply that they do I ask, what if you had a gun and someone was threatening the life of your child? That's the moment most realize that they are capable if generally unwilling.
    It's funny but this came up at work today.

    I was in an office shared by a couple of ladies that I work around pretty much every day. One of them is always giving me a hard time about something and I generally try to return the favor. Anyway, she had a drawer open where she keeps a key I need to access some paperwork. I went to get it out about the same time that she decided to shut it. Long story short, I didn't get my hand hit but started implying that I thought she meant to do it.

    She looked hurt (yeah, right) and said "I'd never intentionally hurt anyone."

    "Never say never" says I.

    She gave me her 'I'm serious' look. "I'd never hurt anyone on purpose."

    I grinned and was just about to mention the possibility of someone hurting her daughter when the other lady in the room spoke up. "If someone hurt your little girl, you would. I know that. If anyone hurt my baby, I'd kill 'em."

    I just grinned bigger then walked out lamenting the fact that lady 2 was already married.

    Barrett

  11. #11
    Senior Member Array Zundfolge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euclidean
    We're so conditioned by society to be passive victims...
    Thats really a big part of the problem...we all buy into this silly notion of being "civilized". Its that same social conditioning that causes many people to put themselves in harms way (the classic example is the woman who gets onto an elevator with a "sketchy" looking guy because she doesn't want to appear "rude" and finds herself robbed/raped/murdered).

    In my own case, a little over a decade ago a friend of mine and I where robbed at gunpoint in the parking lot of his apartment building because of such stupid notions.


    It was a little after 2am and we'd been trolling the bars and came up empty handed so we headed back to his place for some coffee and eggs ... as we walked across the parking lot a "disadvantaged black youth" made eye contact with us so we just stopped and let him approach. I still remember thinking as he walked up that it was not a good idea but I didn't want to look like some sort of racist
    Anyway, he walks up, pulls a pistol (little Raven .25) racks the slide with the pistol pointed away from us and then demands the money.
    We give it up, along with my watch and he leaves ... as he leaves he says in a rather disgusted tone "Damn I hate white people!".

    So because of some stupid notion of not wanting to appear racist, being completely in "condition white" and then being "stunned into inaction" I got robbed ... thankfully it went well and he didn't just decide to off a couple of honkeys.

    Because of that incident (and the followup with the absolutely worthless police...but thats another story) I learned that when confronted with senseless violence you must respond instantly with an even greater amount of violence. You must keep your eyes open, and you can't care if people think you're rude or a racist just because you're not willing to talk to a some guy you don't know after dark).

  12. #12
    Member Array LPguy's Avatar
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    Chris,

    I have seen Black belts freeze up in real situations before. The best way to give somebody the right "mind set" is real scenario training.

    For example.

    Give her an air soft gun and have her conceal it where she would be most likely to. Then pick a location, anyplace at all....parking lot, hallway at her car etc. vary the times of day too for lighting reasons. Then sneak up on her like a BG would...you will both see in an instant what will need to be done to improve her confidence.

    Mike

  13. #13
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    Valid point Mike - we have some ways to go yet - but I do think that the ''anger aspect'' is an important one tho no guarantee against a freeze - for any of us perhaps.

    Having been handgunning myself a quarter century and more I am pretty sure my training and instincts would kick in - but Sue's - well, be good to test her out. She is however better off now than a mere week ago.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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