"The Law" or the "intent" of the law

This is a discussion on "The Law" or the "intent" of the law within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In the MO CCW law there is a specific list of about 15 places that are said the be off limits for carrying a concealed ...

Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: "The Law" or the "intent" of the law

  1. #1
    Member Array GOPony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    82

    "The Law" or the "intent" of the law

    In the MO CCW law there is a specific list of about 15 places that are said the be off limits for carrying a concealed weapon. However when the wrote the law the specifically put in the following under the list of no no places.


    "Carrying a concealed firearm in any location specified above is not a
    criminal act. However, you can be denied access to the premises or may
    be removed from the premises for doing so"

    Now if you refuse to leave then it is a tresspassing issue. I have seen it stated that the intent of the law was to be ban weapons from this list of places, but the actual law seems to contradict that. Perhaps the intent of the law was to keep guns out but in case you didn't see the sign or something and carried you would not get arrested (I dunno)

    Regardless if it is not a criminal act, what would you do. If you assume that the intent was to ban, but the law allows it. Would you carry anyways or respect the intent?

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    VIP Member Array David in FL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    2,342
    Am I right in assuming we're talking about types of places, rather than individual unique businesses? Say, restaurants as a possible example?

    If so, I would carry into any of those types of places and if discovered, and asked to leave, I would do so, letting them know that I would take my business elsewhere.

  4. #3
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Mid-Cape Cod, Mass.
    Posts
    861
    Seems like the intent of the law was just to notify you that those 15 places just do not want guns around, or prefer not to have them around, but did not make it a crime. I personally would just respect the wishes of the 15 places and not carry there. I know that once they tell you to leave and you stay, then it is trespassing.
    I don't think you would get arrested whether you saw the sign or not but if it were me, I would avoid those places just because your gun is not welcome there but you are. This is obviously only one person's opinion.
    And the reason I say this is because any of these places might be important to you and you don't want to have a bad relationship with them, e.g. a gym you go to and they are one of the 15 places, and now you risk having them ask you to leave, makes it kind of hard to come back even unarmed, getting off to the wrong start with them etc etc
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
    __________________________________
    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
    __________________________________
    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  5. #4
    Member Array GOPony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    82
    Maybe this will help, this is the list and the rest of the law


    In accordance with Section 571.107 RSMo., you may not carry a concealed
    weapon in the following places:
    any police, sheriff, or Highway Patrol office or station without consent;
    within 25 feet of any polling place on Election Day;
    adult or juvenile jail or institution;
    courthouse or facilities;
    any meeting of a government body (except by a member with a
    concealed carry endorsement);
    bar without consent;
    airport;
    where prohibited by federal law;
    schools;
    child care facility (without consent of manager);
    riverboat gambling facility;
    amusement parks;
    any church or place of worship; without permission of Minister or
    person representing religious organization
    any sports arena or stadium (with seating for more than 5,000);
    hospitals; and,
    private or public property where posted.
    Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises of any of the
    above-listed locations is not prohibited so long as the firearm is not removed
    from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises.
    Carrying a concealed firearm in any location specified above is not a
    criminal act. However, you can be denied access to the premises or may
    be removed from the premises for doing so. If a peace officer is summoned:
    Upon the first offense, you can be cited and fined up to $100.
    If within six months, a second offense occurs, you can be fined up
    to $200, and your concealed firearms endorsement can be suspended
    for a period of one year.
    If within one year of the first offense a third citation for a similar violation
    is issued, you may be fined up to $500, and your concealed
    carry endorsement revoked. If your concealed carry endorsement
    is revoked, you are not eligible for the endorsement for a period of
    three years.

  6. #5
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Mid-Cape Cod, Mass.
    Posts
    861
    I would go into some, e.g. amusement park, churches, bars.
    That is a really low fine for that offense. Shows that there may have been huge disagreement in the legislature and most felt they had to so something, so they did it. But the fine is amazingly low, considering what they are talking about.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
    __________________________________
    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
    __________________________________
    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  7. #6
    Member Array PHILBEE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    RAYMORE, MO
    Posts
    26
    Carrying in a posted location is only an "infraction" if asked to leave and refuse to do so . I carry in posted locations because I am concealed and no one knows. I've never been discovered. I do, however, generally refuse to spend my money in establishments that are posted. Do be aware that the laws in other states are different (ie Kansas) and carrying there by reciprocity in a posted area is a crime.

    I recently went into a restaurant that was newly posted. I had a discussion with the manager and general manager about their sign and my desire to be able to protect myself in a somewhat dangerous area of town. Long story short, they removed the do not carry sign and replaced it with a sign that said "illegally posessed firearms prohibited". They were trying to keep firearms out of the bar area of the establishment and were not at all interested in keeping legally armed citizens out of the restaurant.

  8. #7
    Member Array AlongcameJones's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    171
    Quote Originally Posted by PHILBEE View Post
    I recently went into a restaurant that was newly posted. I had a discussion with the manager and general manager about their sign and my desire to be able to protect myself in a somewhat dangerous area of town. Long story short, they removed the do not carry sign and replaced it with a sign that said "illegally posessed firearms prohibited". They were trying to keep firearms out of the bar area of the establishment and were not at all interested in keeping legally armed citizens out of the restaurant.
    Usually one gets a negative reaction from restaurant management. Apparently you were effective in explaining that there is a difference between illegal carry and legal carry and it soaked in. Well done PHILBEE!
    Kahr K9
    Sig P239 9mm DAK
    Sig P229 .40 SAS GenII
    Sig P250 9mm

  9. #8
    Member Array turbobore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    32
    I carry everywhere, except of course places with metal detectors like airports or court houses. I tell nobody. Nobody has ever asked. I've carried for 18 years and have never been discovered. Most friends don't even know I carry. I don't make a deal about it. Conceal well, carry everywhere and don't worry about it.

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array tns0038's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    2,138
    I would fallow the law, and pay no attention to silly signs that are not legal.

    Being that your pistol is concealed no one is going to know your armed. And if they do happen to see it, and ask you to leave, my advice is to leave ASAFP, or you could face a trespassing charge.

    Today, I carry via a CCL and that’s why I normally carry a pocket pistol. Easy to conceal and even if they have someone at the door looking in bags and patting people down, they never find the pistol.

    However, I should say that for over 10 years, I carried a Glock 19, and with the exception of entering the Federal Courthouse, or airport security area, I never had anyone ask me for “credentials”.

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    SW Missouri
    Posts
    2,193
    Quote Originally Posted by turbobore View Post
    I carry everywhere, except of course places with metal detectors like airports or court houses. I tell nobody. Nobody has ever asked. ...Most friends don't even know I carry. I don't make a deal about it. Conceal well, carry everywhere and don't worry about it.
    +1

    The way the law is written in Missouri, you have to be a complete idiot to really get in trouble. As has been stated, If they catch you, all they can do is ask you to leave. The only way you can get fined or arrested is if you refuse to leave after you've been asked to do so.

    Carry your gun, keep it concealed. If you ever get "made" (which shouldn't and probably won't happen), just leave without a fuss and there won't be any problems.
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

  12. #11
    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    1,164
    Quote Originally Posted by tns0038 View Post

    Today, I carry via a CCL and that’s why I normally carry a pocket pistol. Easy to conceal and even if they have someone at the door looking in bags and patting people down, they never find the pistol.
    If the person at the door is conducting pat-downs and they MISS a pocket-carry weapon, they are horrible at their job. I could somewhat understand missing a SmartCarry pistol as some people are hesistant to search the groin area. But pockets?
    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

  13. #12
    Sam
    Sam is offline
    New Member Array Sam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Fat Cottonwood, New Mexico
    Posts
    4
    Concealed means concealed.
    Shoot lots,
    Get Good

  14. #13
    VIP Member Array grady's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Near St. Louis, Missouri
    Posts
    2,837
    The intent of the law is to allow me the opportunity to protect myself and my family in most situations. So yes, I follow that intent.

    Gotta love the CCW laws in Missouri.

  15. #14
    Senior Member Array digitalexplr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Jefferson City, MO
    Posts
    914
    I carry all over the state including most of the places on that list.

    If discovered they have to ask me to leave and I have to refuse to leave before any LEO action can be taken. Even then the statute states that the LEO MAY issue a citation not to exceed $100 for the first offense. However, if I am stupid enough to remain after being discovered and asked to leave, I deserve a citation.

    The only way one should ever know I'm carrying is if I need to deploy the weapon. Otherwise, concealed means concealed.

  16. #15
    Member Array tabsr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    282

    MN Carry

    Open or concealed is okay. The no carry places are simple.

    Must be at least 21 years of age
    Must complete an application form
    Must not be prohibited from possessing a firearm under Minnesota Statute 624.714
    Must not be listed in the criminal gang investigation system
    Must be a resident of the county from which you are requesting a permit, if you reside in Minnesota. Non-residents may apply to any Minnesota county sheriff.
    Must provide certificate of completed authorized firearms training. Training by a certified instructor and completed within one year of an original or renewal application. (624.714, Subd. 2a)

    16. Where is my Minnesota permit valid?
    Minnesota permits are valid throughout the state of Minnesota.


    18. Do I have to disclose to a peace officer that I am a permit holder and carrying a firearm?
    Yes, upon request of a peace officer, a permit holder must disclose to the officer whether or not the permit holder is currently carrying a firearm.


    22. If I have a permit to carry a pistol do I have to conceal the pistol?
    No. Minnesota’s Personal Protection Act is a permit to carry law, not a conceal and carry law. The pistol does not need to be concealed, but can be concealed.

    24. Where am I prohibited from carrying my pistol?

    School property
    A childcare center while children are present
    Public colleges and universities – may have policy restricting the carrying of weapons on their premises by employees and students while on campus
    Private establishments that have posted a sign banning guns on their premises
    Private establishments who have personally informed the permit holder that guns are prohibited and demands compliance
    Places of employment, public or private, if employer restricts the carry or possession of firearms by is employees
    State correctional facilities or state hospitals and grounds (MN Statute 243.55)
    Any jail, lockup or correctional facility (MN Statute 641.165)
    Courthouse complexes, unless the sheriff is notified (MN Statute 609.66)
    Offices and courtrooms of the Minnesota Supreme Court and Court of Appeals
    Any state building unless the commissioner of public safety is notified (MN Statute 609.66)
    In a field while hunting big game by archery, except when hunting bear (MN Statute 97B.211)
    In federal court facilities or other federal facilities (Title 18 U.S.C.§ 930)
    25. Can private establishments prohibit carrying pistols on their premises?
    Yes, private establishments must post a notice banning guns on their premises or personally notify patrons that guns are not allowed.

    26. Can my landlord restrict me from carrying or possessing firearms on residence premises?
    Landlords may not restrict the lawful carry or possession of firearms by tenants or their guests.

    27. Can my employer prohibit carrying pistols in the work place?
    Yes, an employer may establish policies that restrict the carry or possession of firearms by is employees while the employee is working.

    28. Can I prohibit firearms in my private residence?
    The owner of the residence may prohibit firearms in their home.
    Last edited by tabsr; May 3rd, 2008 at 10:41 PM. Reason: Spell
    "Politicians and Bureaucrats, depend very much on the complicity of their victims, and like criminals, are flummoxed when we don't play the victim role."

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. "Blue Force Gear" and "eCop! Police Supply" Review
    By Medic218 in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: December 30th, 2012, 05:31 PM
  2. (Open carry) "Help, Officer, he brandished his weapon at me!"..."No i didn't!!"
    By RR9501 in forum Open Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 43
    Last Post: October 9th, 2010, 01:48 PM
  3. Smith & Wesson Model 40 "Classic" "Lemon Squeezer"
    By randytulsa2 in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: February 10th, 2008, 05:30 AM
  4. A True Texas Tale: "Bad Guy" "One", "Old Man" "Zero"
    By Rock and Glock in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: March 17th, 2006, 08:50 AM

Search tags for this page

florida can my landlord restrict me from carrying possessing firearms
,

missouri ccw offlimit places

Click on a term to search for related topics.