I had to go to the Post Office today...(Merged)

This is a discussion on I had to go to the Post Office today...(Merged) within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Like the instructor told us at the CCW class, when the poo poo hits the fan, the police will determine the events that took place ...

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Thread: I had to go to the Post Office today...(Merged)

  1. #16
    Member Array Slabsides45's Avatar
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    Like the instructor told us at the CCW class, when the poo poo hits the fan, the police will determine the events that took place and evaluate your guilt or innocence based on what he called "competing evils." If the two evils in this case were you breaking the USPS regs and the BG attempting armed robbery, the clearly worse evil is the BG, and they'd let you walk. The instructor is a LEO when not teaching the class, and used hiking in a national forest as an example of how you can keep your mouth shut and take care of yo binness, or you can assume your role in society -

    Not telling you what you should do, but I've been acting out my decision on this matter for the last year or so WRT the USPS.

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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array rmarkob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kentuckycarry View Post
    I find that shipping packages postal is the cheapest way to go so thats where I go. I disarm in the parking lot and it's the only place I do disarm except the courthouse and an occasional school.
    To the OP. Why not take a gun in the car with you? Why make the whole trip "gun free". Is it not legal to park in the lot?
    UPS Stores also offer USPS shipping.
    Clinging to guns and God in PA...

  4. #18
    Distinguished Member Array LenS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmarkob View Post
    UPS Stores also offer USPS shipping.
    And why would one want to pay the outrageous surcharges that these UPS stores charge, just to avoid the USPO?

    Admittedly, I rarely go to the window in the USPO, as I don't send packages very often. I mostly go in, get my mail from the PO Box, drop mail in the outgoing slot and I'm out the door. Small PO, usually 0-2 people in that area of PO at any one time, although there is frequently a line for the windows that's inside the inner door.

    As I stated above, the Fed Law requires that you be "state legal" so in those states that specifically prohibit carrying in any federal building, USPO, bank, library, etc. everything that I state is irrelevant to YOUR particular set of circumstances.

    MGLs only specify that carrying in any school or school property of any sort is illegal. No other areas are noted in MGL as "free kill zones", so MA residents are "home free" with the proper LTC-A (unrestricted).

    YMMV

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array David in FL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LenS View Post
    But did you ever think that since the POSTED CFR references the 18 USC that I noted (as the legal authority behind said CFR) . . . that just "perhaps" this part of the USC IS one of those exceptions (does apply)???

    IANAL, but I can read. Ron isn't a lawyer either, but he consults daily with the legal staff at MA EOPS, etc. to get the legal answers he printed in his book (which is revised annually . . . up to 13th edition now), which is used to train new police officers in the Academy as well as training for firearms licensing officers.

    Also, concealed means CONCEALED! If one walks into a USPO goes to their PO Box, the mail drop box or a window to buy stamps (I usually get mine at Costco's however), do you really expect that they are going to do a strip-search as you enter?

    I've only once walked into a USPO and found a metal detector and x-ray machine. I simply asked the screeners if there was a mailbox OUTSIDE nearby instead of going thru this BS just to mail a letter . . . they told me where it was, I said thanks and exited the building with no problem and no screening. The US District Court was upstairs in this building at that time and so they felt a sudden urge for security. This was probably in the mid/late 1980s.
    Just because the sign might incorrectly cite one USC, it doesn't negate the validity of the correct code or regulation. 39 CFR clearly prohibits firearms on USPO property and I'm not willing to be the test case for that one...... In my little world, as I analyze the potential cost vs benefit, this one doesn't make sense to me. But that may just be me.

    As to the whole "concealed means concealed" thing, now the discussion becomes do we violate the law with the understanding that we're not likely to be caught? Different discussion entirely, and one in which I'll choose not to participate......

  6. #20
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    Well, like David said, until we have a test case, the law regarding Post Office carry is vague at best. Each individual has to determine their own risk.

    My Post Office has no signs regarding firearms but ignorance of the law is still no excuse. I choose to err on the side of reasonable caution with regard to the law and assume the stricter standard. That's just me.
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

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  7. #21
    Distinguished Member Array LenS's Avatar
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    David,

    I think the point is moot for you anyway, as IIRC FL Law specifically prohibits carry at a USPO. Haven't looked at the long list of prohibited places in a long time, but that is what I recall. I have a FL CCW but have never used it in FL, so I did read their list with the application form some years ago.

    The posted CFR (sign) STATES the USC that gives it legal authority. If you print out both the CFR and USC referenced, you will find them ALMOST identical, except that the sign leaves out the exemption.

    WHY do you insist that the sign INCORRECTLY (your word) cites the USC??

    Since the wording of the two are almost identical, I contend that you are stating your opinion as if it is "fact" and refuse to read them first to see what the FACTS are.

    Every CFR MUST have an underlying USC that authorized it, you will find it in the BATFE books, signage (such as under discussion here), etc. Nothing different because it is a PO. The law is what it is.

    Furthermore if "possession" of firearms was prohibited on USPO property (as you stated), you would NOT be able to ship long guns to FFLs via USPO (specifically allowed in USPO Regulations) and FFLs would not be able to ship handguns via USPO (again specifically allowed in USPO Regulations) as they would be "prohibited" from bringing them onto the property.

    Also, if the law was as strict as you have stated, I would have most likely been challenged at some point in the past ~30 years as I have been open carrying in uniform (I was a Reserve PO for many years) in various USPOs as well as more recently ccw'g while in the USPO on official business to get forwarding addresses while talking directly to a Postmaster or Supervisor. Prohibited Federal Buildings don't like anyone but Federal LEOs carrying on their property and do challenge local and state LEOs on a regular basis.

  8. #22
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    Get a small, COM car safe, lock your gun up for the 5-10 minutes you are going to be gone and don't fret about it.

    At some point in time we all usually run into a circumstance that requires us to go into a building/place unarmed. If you feel THAT naked and exposed then I'd suspect there is a deeper issue to deal with.

    A firearm is not your ONLY means of self defense. Sure, it's a good one, but there are several more items available to you that can and will do an upstanding job should you need them. Why put all you faith and good feelings into a firearm alone? It's kind of like putting all of your eggs in one basket.

    What if you could/did carry into the post office, thence feeling completely comfortable, something goes HORRIBLY wrong and you are forced to draw only to find your cylinder is jammed and won't move! Then what? Do you have a backup plan? Do you have anything in place other than your firearm? Are you prepared to ditch your gun and go onto the next phase without a second of hesitation?

    As wonderful as all firearms are, they are all mechanical and ALL have the opportunity to fail.

    Have a backup for if/when you can't have your firearm. Even if you CAN have your firearm STILL have a backup in the event you are no longer able to use said firearm. Don't cut yourself short by thinking your only defensive tool is a gun.

    I also agree that not feeling safe without your firearm and therefore sending your unarmed wife to do your errands for you is a little odd.

    A gun is just a tool. Give yourself other tools and you won't feel so uneasy about going unarmed when you have to.

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array David in FL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LenS View Post
    David,

    I think the point is moot for you anyway, as IIRC FL Law specifically prohibits carry at a USPO. Haven't looked at the long list of prohibited places in a long time, but that is what I recall. I have a FL CCW but have never used it in FL, so I did read their list with the application form some years ago.

    The posted CFR (sign) STATES the USC that gives it legal authority. If you print out both the CFR and USC referenced, you will find them ALMOST identical, except that the sign leaves out the exemption.

    WHY do you insist that the sign INCORRECTLY (your word) cites the USC??

    Since the wording of the two are almost identical, I contend that you are stating your opinion as if it is "fact" and refuse to read them first to see what the FACTS are.

    Every CFR MUST have an underlying USC that authorized it, you will find it in the BATFE books, signage (such as under discussion here), etc. Nothing different because it is a PO. The law is what it is.

    Furthermore if "possession" of firearms was prohibited on USPO property (as you stated), you would NOT be able to ship long guns to FFLs via USPO (specifically allowed in USPO Regulations) and FFLs would not be able to ship handguns via USPO (again specifically allowed in USPO Regulations) as they would be "prohibited" from bringing them onto the property.

    Also, if the law was as strict as you have stated, I would have most likely been challenged at some point in the past ~30 years as I have been open carrying in uniform (I was a Reserve PO for many years) in various USPOs as well as more recently ccw'g while in the USPO on official business to get forwarding addresses while talking directly to a Postmaster or Supervisor. Prohibited Federal Buildings don't like anyone but Federal LEOs carrying on their property and do challenge local and state LEOs on a regular basis.
    No, FL cc law dosen't specifically forbid carry at a PO. It forbids carry any place forbidden by federal law though.

    As to 18 USC, 32 USC specifically addresses the limited portions of 18 USC that are applicable to the USPS. The underlying USC for 32 CFR is 32 USC, not 18 USC.....hence the "32".

    MA law may very well not prohibit cc in a post office, but there are clearly portions of the US code and federal regulations that do so and my personal comfort level is to obey them.

  10. #24
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    Did David say he wanted to be the test case :)
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  11. #25
    VIP Member Array David in FL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcb188 View Post
    Did David say he wanted to be the test case :)
    No no no no nooooo......

    I don't do test cases!

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by kentuckycarry View Post
    I find that shipping packages postal is the cheapest way to go so thats where I go. I disarm in the parking lot and it's the only place I do disarm except the courthouse and an occasional school.
    To the OP. Why not take a gun in the car with you? Why make the whole trip "gun free". Is it not legal to park in the lot?
    Exactly my point when asking why folks are so "wrapped up" with this. My carry piece is in my vehicle at all times, with pocket leather. Depending on my mode of dress, I may put on my OWB, I may not.

    (I've a separate house-mate, that is put in it's locked box when I leave my home)

    Once I'm out and about, "consider me armed." If I leave my vehicle, I take junior with me if he's allowed. If not, he waits in the car. I am confident enough in my skills to know what to do if a situation arises and I am "naked".

    I never worry about/care about, if it's "legal" in my car in a parking lot. I'm "legal" if nobody knows what I'm doing!

    Just do your thing and be quiet about it!

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array tns0038's Avatar
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    I never carry a pistol at home, rather one is always nearby. I only put a bug in my pocket when I leave the house, or pistol on my side if Iím headed downtown at night.

    Sure from time to time I forget to put it in my pocket when Iím headed out the door. But like others have said. Iíve carried a pistol over 30 years, and Iíve only drawn it 5 times, and 3 of those times, I was an LEO.

    But, on the other hand, even knowing the odds of needing a pistol is very slight, youíre right, once you get use to it, it gives ya a weird feeling when you know you left your EDC at home.

  14. #28
    Member Array LabTech's Avatar
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    Doesn't the federal law prohibit carry for unlawful purposes as opposed to totally prohibiting thebiting the carry of weapons?

  15. #29
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    Just as an aside, state laws vary tremendously. One solution here was to just keep the gun in your car. In my state it is a felony to leave a firearm unattended in a motor vehicle. Just an example of how state laws vary and sometimes when we discuss things we are thinking (naturally) about the laws in our state, as that is really all we have to go by.
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  16. #30
    Senior Member Array wht06rado's Avatar
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    Yup. Everyday when I go to work. But even if I do have to go to the post office or bank I will carry on the way to and from and just lock it up in the truck while I go in.

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