I had to go to the Post Office today...(Merged)

This is a discussion on I had to go to the Post Office today...(Merged) within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; "According to what I heard during my recent CHL Class here in Texas was this: Not only carrying in a PO is illegal, a felony, ...

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Thread: I had to go to the Post Office today...(Merged)

  1. #76
    Member Array ws76133's Avatar
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    "According to what I heard during my recent CHL Class here in Texas was this: Not only carrying in a PO is illegal, a felony, but it's illegal to even possess a firearm in the parking lot."

    This was stated pretty much verbatim in my class also, although if the Post Office uses a parking lot that also serves other businesses, the gun is legal in the car in that specific situation.

    I get concerned when folks decide what part of laws they choose to ignore. Seems like we see that quite a bit in discussion threads on this forum. I would not like to see more restrictions imposed because folks deilberately violate the law. Too many people in too many states worked too hard to lose ground now.

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  3. #77
    Distinguished Member Array LenS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatGonzo View Post
    Len,
    Sorry, I'm not exactly sure what you mean.
    Gonzo
    See Post # 50 above where I posted the USC intact and highlighted the pertinent points.

    Interpretation in MA (and I can only speak for MA) is that since MA Law does NOT prohibit carrying (with appropriate license) anywhere except school property, that a person with a MA LTC-A can legally carry in a USPO in MA while conducting legitimate business in said USPO.

    I'm going to try to scan and post the 2 pages from the book that Chief Ron Glidden uses to train new police officers and firearms licensing authorities on this subject. He writes the book annually with an attorney (the one who represents the MA Chiefs of Police Assn) and knowing Ron like I do, I'm sure that he's checked his info out with officials of the USPO before printing it.

    More to follow shortly I hope.

    Attached should be jpgs of the pages in Chief Ron Glidden's book "Law Enforcement Guide to Firearms Law" published by the Municipal Police Institute, Inc. [NOTE: This ONLY applies to MA, other states will and do vary!]

    "According to what I heard during my recent CHL Class here in Texas was this: Not only carrying in a PO is illegal, a felony, but it's illegal to even possess a firearm in the parking lot."
    You should have asked the instructor how one would legally ship a long gun then??
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    Last edited by JD; May 14th, 2008 at 09:18 AM.

  4. #78
    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LenS View Post
    Interpretation in MA (and I can only speak for MA) is that since MA Law does NOT prohibit carrying (with appropriate license) anywhere except school property, that a person with a MA LTC-A can legally carry in a USPO in MA while conducting legitimate business in said USPO.
    What will bite you on this, according to discussions I have had with Assistant US Attorneys, is that you want to include your CCL as "lawful purposes". While I understand your logic, the fact is, the federal government does not automatically recognize state-issued CCL's the way they do state issued drivers' licenses. A state issued driver's license is recognized in any state within the U.S., no matter which state issues it. Generally, this premise is accepted under a variety of legal principles like comity and the Full Faith and Credit Clause. Many other countries also recognize U.S. driver's licenses. Obviously the same cannot be said of state issued CCL's. For right or wrong, your CCL is NOT recognized in Washington, D.C.; or New York City; or several other states. It does not carry the force of being a "recognized and acceptable" license by the U.S. government. Therefore it is not a "lawful purpose" under Title 18. Believe me, I understand if you disagree, but I'm letting you know how it was explained to me by a government prosecutor. To me, this is the important point: There have been many cases where folks have been arrested and charged with carrying a firearm on federal property. Many of them plead guilty or are convicted. None, TO MY KNOWLEDGE, have ever succesfully defended themselves in court using your theory. In my humble opinion...not very good odds.

    That being said: I know for a fact that the security guards at our "local" federal building have sent people with CCL's back to their cars to secure their weapons without notifying the FBI or whomever. I personally know Postal Inspectors who say that if they respond to a call from a Post Office where a CCL holder has been inadvertantly exposed, barring idiotic behavior on the part of the CCL holder, they would send them on their way with a warning. But those same Postal Inspectors, given cause, would absolutely charge the crime if they needed to.

    Again, what you have here is MY OPINION based on almost 2 decades in law enforcement, most of it federal. I don't pretend to be an expert and certainly not the "be all end all" of knowledge on the subject. I simply know this- If you choose to spend that extra 15 minutes of your life (in the post office line) carrying a firearm and you get caught, you risk, at best, an incredibly long and expensive court fight in which you might (MIGHT) come out on top and become a hero to the CCL community nationwide; or you will most likely be convicted of a federal crime and lose your CCL for the rest of your life. As an individual, you simply have to weigh the odds and make your decisions.

    Again, let me stress here...I am NOT an attorney or legal expert. I do NOT work for the Office of the US Attorney. I do NOT in any way, shape, or form speak on behalf of the US Government or any entity therein. My post should NOT be taken as any sort of legal guidance or advice. It is strictly my opinion as an individual and as a CCL holder. My opinion combined with a subway token will get your a ride on the subway...nothing more, nothing less.

    Just my .02,
    Gonzo
    "Skin that smokewagon!".

  5. #79
    VIP Member Array David in FL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LenS View Post

    Interpretation in MA (and I can only speak for MA) is that since MA Law does NOT prohibit carrying (with appropriate license) anywhere except school property, that a person with a MA LTC-A can legally carry in a USPO in MA while conducting legitimate business in said USPO.
    LenS,

    I'm sure you're beginning to think that I'm being a contentious pain in the butt and taking shots at you here, but pls believe me, that's not my intent at all!

    Since this is a federal issue and transcends individual state law, I think it's important for all to understand......

    When Miklcolt45 mentioned Gutmacher's interpretation, it's important to realize that the basis of his (Gutmacher's) determination that carrying in a USPO is illegal in FL is due entirely to his interpretation that carrying in a USPO is forbidden by 18 and 39 USC and 39 CFR.

    That's a very important distinction, because, if his interpretation is correct, it doesn't matter if MA or FL, or any other state specifically forbids carrying in the USPO, it's still a violation of federal law to do so.

    Now it just comes down to who's interpretation of the federal not the state law each of us chooses to believe.....that of a well respected, experience police chief, or that of an attorney who has specialized in firearm, weapons, and self-defense law for nearly 30 years..... Up to you, but personally, I'm going with the attorney on this one.

    BTW and FWIW, I have enough respect for Gutmacher's experience in the field that I carry his card in my wallet next to my ccw.....boy howdy, do I hope I never have to make that call!

  6. #80
    Distinguished Member Array LenS's Avatar
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    Gonzo and David, I hear both of you, and appreciate your input.

    OK, I agree that it bears further checking out on my part wrt Ron's info (since I know that he tends to be very thorough).

    I do not claim to be an expert in Federal matters such as this, and will admit that the badge in my pocket allows me to ignore almost all such rules in my own state. Pre-9/11 I have been waved thru the security checkpoint by the then manager of security for all Federal bldgs in Boston based on being a local LEO while another time the rent-a-cop security supervisor at another Federal bldg wanted to totally deny me access to the building saying that they can't allow Constables in the building (I was not carrying at that time and was there for a meeting on a LE matter) . . . until he saw my PD badge (then I was "good to go" even though I explained that I was retired from that position)!!

    It might take me some time, as we're in a holding pattern here awaiting a date for further back surgery for my Wife and trying to run a business at the same time.

  7. #81
    VIP Member Array Supertac45's Avatar
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    Wow, still going on. The one question I have is: does anyone have a reference to anyone ever being arrested for carrying into a post office?
    Les Baer 45
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  8. #82
    Member Array jcheinaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crestliner View Post
    ...to mail a couple of packages, so, knowing that this place is carry banned, I left my revolver at home. Boy did I feel absolutely naked and vulnerable! I don't think I'd like to do that ever again. I've been concealed carrying with my SP101 almost 24/7 - except when I'm sleeping. I do think that next time, I'll be sending my wife in, while I wait in the car! This was really a "spooky" feeling. Anyone have a similar experience?
    Just do what I do... Go to the contracted post office in the local supermarket. It isn't actually a post office but they do business on their behalf. The store I go to let the cashiers and other staff run it on certain days of the week.

  9. #83
    Member Array nativenyerintexas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ws76133 View Post
    "According to what I heard during my recent CHL Class here in Texas was this: Not only carrying in a PO is illegal, a felony, but it's illegal to even possess a firearm in the parking lot."

    This was stated pretty much verbatim in my class also, although if the Post Office uses a parking lot that also serves other businesses, the gun is legal in the car in that specific situation.

    I get concerned when folks decide what part of laws they choose to ignore. Seems like we see that quite a bit in discussion threads on this forum. I would not like to see more restrictions imposed because folks deilberately violate the law. Too many people in too many states worked too hard to lose ground now.
    I agree with you 100%. Where abouts in Fort Worth are you? I'm near NW Loop 820 and go to The Shooter's Club about once a week.
    It is to be observed that Right of Self-Defence, arises directly and immediately from the Care of our own Preservation, which Nature recommends to every one. . . , and that this right is so primary, that it cannot be denied on the basis that it is not "expressly set forth.

    --- Hugo Grotius

  10. #84
    Member Array ws76133's Avatar
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    I'm in Wedgwood near Hulen & Granbury Rd. I usually shoot at the range between Benbrook & Cresson.

  11. #85
    Senior Member Array Phillep Harding's Avatar
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    Crime at Post Office

    Is there something about a Post Office that is supposed to make it magically immune to criminals hanging out there looking for people who are probably unarmed?

    Juneau Alaska had a problem with the offspring of State Legislators and Lobbyists hanging out near bars, and robbing people as they came out. Easy enough to see that sort of thing outside a PO.

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