The Case for Weak-Sided Tools

This is a discussion on The Case for Weak-Sided Tools within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Lima, I don't carry any weapons on my weak side, and here's why. As a woman with children, I am rarely in public without them. ...

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Thread: The Case for Weak-Sided Tools

  1. #46
    Member Array gg12's Avatar
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    Lima,

    I don't carry any weapons on my weak side, and here's why. As a woman with children, I am rarely in public without them. I often must carry one or more of them OR the paraphanelia that accompanies small children. Have you tried to carry a 30 lb toddler astride your KaBar? How about over your EDC? Now, lets talk about how to draw while carrying one kid and holding another's hand.

    Situational awareness is of utmost importance. Knowing the neighborhood is also extremely important. Simple reality often dictates that a woman defending her children usually cannot carry two guns, two extra magazines, three knives, a flashlight, as well as the diaper bag and the kids. I realize that somewhere someone's wife has not only done this, but raised 6 kids doing it (and to that as-yet-unidentified woman I offer my deepest admiration), but I estimate that very few gun-toting mothers have the time nor energy to worry about/carry weak side weaponry.

    Best wishes.

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  3. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by StevePVB View Post
    Lima & JD,

    I know this is completely off topic. But.. why don't you folks move? I'm not suggesting you abandon our shared feelings of protecting ourselves, but at least find a place to live where it is not a constant battle of discussing how to arm yourselves before you go get the mail (or have a baby).

    I have learned a lot from your posts. I just wish you could educate me less and live in a better neighborhood.

    Steve

    PS JD, Semper Fi Devil Dog
    Fair Question, I was offered a number of Jobs in PRCA (Peoples Republic of California) before I retired from the Navy. I was given a choice of moving back to Pensacola or staying in CA. I choose to start over in Pensacola. People think crime here is bad, compared to what it was 20 years ago, yes. (these are people that have never lived anywhere else) Compared to any city I have lived in Cali way, not even close. 2 shooting in the past 3 months. I am used to 2 shootings a day in the same size area. I make less here but it cost less to live, and I probably am overkill in paronia for this city but OK. 1 in 10 people here are as well armed as me from the statistics I've seen, I feel better knowing that.

    Some people don't have the choices I have had. Their families are there or the better half just loves the area. I've made my choice and I am happy with it.
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  4. #48
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    Concerning Martial Arts use for folks that are not totally into it.

    Naturally my comment right here cannot cover all possible situations but, for the most part I am not thrills, spills, and daffodils all for people learning one or two "feelgoodism" martial arts moves as defensive measures.

    It's a case of too little knowledge being a very dangerous thing especially when the aggressor is larger, more powerful, and potentially instantly violently aggressive.

    Since we are using the Carlie Brucia video as some sort of "starting reference point" indicative of a weaker female having been grabbed by her strong arm - in that situation had she simply broken his hold - what then? - He would have instantly turned and broken her jaw right off her face and crushingly overpowered her in general.

    Far better (I think) for a more mature petite female to take every advantage of one possible single opportunity to inflict a preemptive mortal/fatal wound.
    That would certainly at least make it impossible for the actual abduction to continue since the perpetrator is going to bleed out and die before too very long.

    As for Carlie there is probably not much that she could have done to save herself in her situation except for not being in that particular location alone at that time.

    All probability is that she had no defensive weapon on either her strong or support side.
    She just happened to comply and be totally submissive in that short stretch of Video and so all that we see is her being led away.

    Had she resisted at the at the moment she was grabbed - I just think that we would be seeing a much different (and far more violent) Video segment - all for the worse for her.

    Being so young and trusting and taken by total surprise by a large "adult" she was at every disadvantage.
    I just have serious doubts that her having learned one or two Martial Arts moves to break his hold would have done much to save her.

    In attempting to flee she very likely would have been caught and overpowered in short order and I don't think much (if anything) would have altered her eventual fate for the better.

    But, absolutely an older, wiser, and more aware "adept and equipped" female could certainly have radically altered her outcome and her chances for survival MUCH for the better.
    Not a little 11 year old naive kid though caught in that exact scenario.

    Just my personal opinion on that.
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  5. #49
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    In attempting to flee she very likely would have been caught and overpowered in short order and I don't think much (if anything) would have altered her eventual fate for the better.

    But, absolutely an older, wiser, and more aware "adept and equipped" female could certainly have radically altered her outcome and her chances for survival MUCH for the better.
    Not a little 11 year old naive kid though caught in that exact scenario.

    Just my personal opinion on that.
    I understand where you're coming from, OTOH...

    stats. show that females who fight back, even with only empty-hand techniques, are much more likely to survive relatively unscathed. In most cases it's probably not because they physically dominated their attacker (just not likely for the average woman against the average man). It's because they made themselves more trouble than they were worth and the guy decided to move on to a "softer" target.

    We'll never know what would have happened if Carlie had fought back literally kicking and screaming, but it very well could have made the guy look for an easier mark.
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

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  6. #50
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    This is what I get for being away for a day. Thanks for all the great responses.

    And for those who admitted that they'd never thought about it before or determined to do better with protecting their weak sides. GREAT! This thread has served its purpose then!

    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJake View Post
    My opinion, and I know this will raise a few eyebrows, because we all including me would like to stab somebody. Admit it. But would we be willing to do it. The more aggressive your action, the more justification you are going to have to do, to yourself and the Civil and Criminal Legal system. So the opposite is also true. The less you do to them, the less you will face from the Civil and Criminal Justice System.
    I agree with what QK said about speaking for yourself here. I would hate to stab anyone. I carry a knife for the same reason I carry a gun, not because I want to use it but because if I have to use it I'd rather have it than not.

    But as for the rest of what you said about justifiable force, that's true. The more force you use the more you have to justify it, but I don't think that would be hard for someone like me.

    I think full grown men tend to look around at one another more as equals and think, "Well, I don't need to use a defensive tool because one good clock on the side of the head is all it would take from me."

    That very well may be true, but I don't see full grown men as my equals when it comes to disparity of force. I don't fear them, but I respect the fact that they are bigger and stronger than me. One good left hook from me MAY NOT be all it takes and I might be in worse shape than I was before because instead of helping my situation I've just made my attacker more angry. No, I'm not taking any chances (especially not with this little one growing in my tummy). I'm going to end the situation as quickly and effectively as possible. I may hate what needs to be done, but I'd hate it worse if I lost my life or the life of my child because I didn't fight hard enough or mean enough.

    I also don't think I'd have too hard of a time justifying that to a jury.

    Quote Originally Posted by buckeyeLCPL View Post
    In civvies I'm not as prepared, and would have to just rely on a left hook or some such thing. Maybe naive on my part, but I'm a trained infantryman, and by no means small, so I'll probably stick with that.
    This is kind of what I was talking about before. You are probably perfectly able to defend yourself hand-to-hand if need be. In fact, you, like my husband, could probably kick some serious butt if all that happened was someone just grabbed your arm.

    I've seen my husband fight once and it wasn't even a "real" fight, but he had his opponent on the ground so fast and in a choke-hold so secure the kid's legs were flopping around like a dying fish.

    I don't think I'd have QUITE that easy of a time of it. When JD and I "grapple" for training purposes he sometimes has to stifle laughs because I'm really trying my hardest and he's barely fazed. That is why when we "fight" he emphasizes using angles, pressure points and blows to weak points instead of brute strength. I'm no match for any tough guy when it comes to physical strength, but his groin is no match for my knee either (or his eyes to my thumb and so on).

    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    I think this is more of a training issue than a hardware issue.
    I think it could be both. Certainly training should be used to prepare you for such an incident should you be unarmed, but the hardware can really give you an edge you may never have had and may never get if you didn't have it.

    For instance, let's say you sprained your shoulder playing sports and while it's not a permanent disability it certainly hinders your ability to use its full capacity against your opponent. Suddenly, a tool, could REALLY help you out in that situation.

    Or like me. Three and a half months pregnant, sick, weak, off-balance, adapting to a changing body and scared to death for my baby's well-being (especially if some creep grabs me). The little life within me is very fragile and so am I right now. In normal circumstances I very well may be able to use a trained move or technique to break his hold and run away, but yesterday I could barely walk across an airport with JD supporting me and helping me I was in so much pain and discomfort much less run away from a determined attacker.

    Sometimes a piece of hardware can really help you out! I'd certainly do all I could without the hardware, but it's nice to have.

    Quote Originally Posted by nutz4utwo View Post
    You two really have somethin' special...
    Yes, we do. Not every couple gets to do force-on-force in their living room willingly. I, for one, am so grateful to have a knowledgeable and skilled husband who will take the time to answer my questions and guide me through what I need to fight back if I have to.

    He's also my scenario/idea dummy. Poor guy is getting way to used to me walking out of the bedroom with a blue gun, handing it to him and saying, "Okay, I want to see if this will work. Point this at me from about three feet away and let's see if I can get it away from you," or "Alright, pin me down. I want to try to fight you off."

    We haven't done any of the really cool stuff since I got pregnant but we had quite a few interesting sessions of gun retention that left us rolling around on the floor, wrestling, all sorts of cool stuff.

    You can speculate all you want but until you try to do it you don't really see JUST how good (or bad) your idea is.

    Quote Originally Posted by gg12 View Post
    Lima,

    I don't carry any weapons on my weak side, and here's why. As a woman with children, I am rarely in public without them. I often must carry one or more of them OR the paraphanelia that accompanies small children. Have you tried to carry a 30 lb toddler astride your KaBar? How about over your EDC? Now, lets talk about how to draw while carrying one kid and holding another's hand.
    I'm about to find out about all of this first hand. And I'm sure it's going to be every bit of a challenge as you say.

    This is why I did specifically practice with my husband, JD, to get some hand-to-hand practice in for those times when I just can't carry a weak-sided tool.

    I would love to carry one 24/7, but the fact of the matter is that's just not possible. I hope I can find a way to do it when I have children, but we'll certainly have to see how that will work out.

    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Since we are using the Carlie Brucia video as some sort of "starting reference point" indicative of a weaker female having been grabbed by her strong arm - in that situation had she simply broken his hold - what then? - He would have instantly turned and broken her jaw right off her face and crushingly overpowered her in general.

    Far better (I think) for a more mature petite female to take every advantage of one possible single opportunity to inflict a preemptive mortal/fatal wound.
    That would certainly at least make it impossible for the actual abduction to continue since the perpetrator is going to bleed out and die before too very long.
    I agree with you on this. Far better to use what you can, quickly and get away clean than risk the possibility of getting chased, recaptured, and this time by a more aggressive attacker who's not going to give you the benefit of the doubt.

    As for Carlie there is probably not much that she could have done to save herself in her situation except for not being in that particular location alone at that time.
    However, I don't necessarily agree with this.

    If she had the mindset to survive she very well may have found something. And even if she fought and was STILL killed at least she would have gone down fighting.

    When I was little (around nine or ten) my sister and I got into an argument about whether or not we would fight if someone tried to kidnap us.

    My sister said, "Someone can grab your arm and threaten to break it if you scream."

    I don't remember what the outcome of our discussion was but for some reason that sentence has stuck with me and today I think, "SO WHAT?!?! Let him break my arm. That's still not going to keep me from doing all I can to survive. Broken bones heal, death doesn't."

    Like it says in my signature, "even death is a poor excuse for not fighting back."

    One thing Carlie did have was a purse! It was slung cross body and looked to be a decent size. If all else failed I would have taken that thing, swung it as hard as I could directly at his face. When I was in school I had lots of books in my bags, it would have hurt and if it stunned him enough I could keep hitting, maybe even enough to get someone else's attention or to shock him enough so I could get away.

    One thing I rely on for weak-sided defense is my car keys. If I'm walking to and from a store I hold my car keys in my left hand by a hefty hook.

    I was once hit by a swinging key and it hurt so bad I have a lot of respect for how much damage a car key can do.

    My plan is to swing and hit, not once, but repeatedly and with the fury of a small crazed animal until my attacker has defensive cuts on his hands from covering his face I've plummeted him so many times with those keys.

    I will use anything I can, even if it's just my fingernails and teeth if it means survival and even if I end up dead, I'll have so much DNA from my attacker under my fingernails and between my teeth, and he'll have so many scratches and bites and bruises that it would be hard for the police not to catch him.

    I think there's something Carlie could have done if only she even knew to try. She was probably never told, just like I was never told, that she was a precious little girl who should fight with every ounce of life she has.

    Soon, JD and I will have a little boy or little girl who won't be able to carry a gun or a knife or even pepper spray to school. He or she won't have any designated tools of defense and may find him or herself walking home from school or even just walking down the aisle in between classes or to the bus stop and find him or herself in a situation where he or she needs to defend him or herself.

    We can't be there, he can't have tools of defense other than what God gave him and the school allows him, but I hope we train him well enough to where he'll put a #2 pencil through his attacker's eye before he'll let himself be led away to a waiting car or certain death.

    My biggest fear, as a mother-to-be, is not that my child will ever be attacked or preyed upon, but that he'll be attacked or preyed upon and I'll watch a video like this of his attack and I'll see that I failed to protect him by not teaching him to fight.

    My goal is to teach my child that while I will always try to be there for him, his first line of defense will always start with himself. I want to teach him (or her) to fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by StevePVB View Post
    I know this is completely off topic. But.. why don't you folks move? I'm not suggesting you abandon our shared feelings of protecting ourselves, but at least find a place to live where it is not a constant battle of discussing how to arm yourselves before you go get the mail (or have a baby).
    We actually live in a really good area. We just like to be thoroughly prepared for whatever may come.

  7. #51
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    So JD is the tool on your weak side? In other words, a weak sided tool?

    Sorry its been a bad morning, I needed to pick on a Marine.
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  8. #52
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    Post

    Oh I totally understand what you folks are saying and I would hope that every kid would kick and scream and scratch and bite.
    If only to get some of that Bad Guy blood spread around some and get that Perp DNA lodged up under their fingernails.

    Sadly though in tests that were done where kids were previously drilled, warned and instructed by their parents - (you know the whole ball of wax) about not getting into cars and not going with or talking to strangers or accepting things from strangers...in actual surprise enacted scenarios ~ the kids failed miserably.

    Not because they were dumb kids that didn't listen to their parents but simply because they were just immature kids being kids.

    Usually one lie from an adult was all that was needed to toss all previous instructions and "supposedly learned behavior" right into the trash can.

    Kids almost always trust, obey, comply, submit, believe, BIG PEOPLE.

    That is one reason why crimes against kids are so horrifically terrible as in "preying" on the totally helpless.

    Naturally you don't want to traumatize your kids to test them but, just be aware of the fact that most children - (even those that received extensive parental instruction) fall completely apart in simulated kidnap/abduction scenarios.

    Some only an hour or so after being last instructed and reminded by a parent.

  9. #53
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by buckeyeLCPL View Post
    In civvies I'm not as prepared, and would have to just rely on a left hook or some such thing. Maybe naive on my part, but I'm a trained infantryman, and by no means small, so I'll probably stick with that.
    This is kind of what I was talking about before. You are probably perfectly able to defend yourself hand-to-hand if need be. In fact, you, like my husband, could probably kick some serious butt if all that happened was someone just grabbed your arm.

    I've seen my husband fight once and it wasn't even a "real" fight, but he had his opponent on the ground so fast and in a choke-hold so secure the kid's legs were flopping around like a dying fish.

    I don't think I'd have QUITE that easy of a time of it. When JD and I "grapple" for training purposes he sometimes has to stifle laughs because I'm really trying my hardest and he's barely fazed. That is why when we "fight" he emphasizes using angles, pressure points and blows to weak points instead of brute strength. I'm no match for any tough guy when it comes to physical strength, but his groin is no match for my knee either (or his eyes to my thumb and so on).
    That is key right there to H2h for defense, you need to know what to do to cause enough pain/damage that the opponent will no longer have the will to continue. I saw it a lot as a bouncer, one good move, like a solid punch or start wrenching someone's shoulder the way it's not supposed to bend, and the fight usually goes right out of people.

    It's not like fighting a UFC fighter who is used to taking damage, most people aren't used to it. There is also the surprise factor thrown in there for the assailant.

    A weak side tool is great, but when you can't have it you need to rely on what you do have. Even something as simple as stomping an assailant's foot with a high-heel or kicking them in the shins (actually a very effective move) could work wonders. Keep in mind most places to target with a knife are the same kinds of places you would target h2h, eyes, throat, solar plexus, ect...

    Speed, Surprise, and Violence of action, that is the key.
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  10. #54
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post

    I think it could be both. Certainly training should be used to prepare you for such an incident should you be unarmed, but the hardware can really give you an edge you may never have had and may never get if you didn't have it.

    For instance, let's say you sprained your shoulder playing sports and while it's not a permanent disability it certainly hinders your ability to use its full capacity against your opponent. Suddenly, a tool, could REALLY help you out in that situation.

    Or like me. Three and a half months pregnant, sick, weak, off-balance, adapting to a changing body and scared to death for my baby's well-being (especially if some creep grabs me). The little life within me is very fragile and so am I right now. In normal circumstances I very well may be able to use a trained move or technique to break his hold and run away, but yesterday I could barely walk across an airport with JD supporting me and helping me I was in so much pain and discomfort much less run away from a determined attacker.

    Sometimes a piece of hardware can really help you out! I'd certainly do all I could without the hardware, but it's nice to have.
    Actually, the last time I've had a debilitating sports injury was when I broke my right thumb in a jujitsu class.

    That is what I get by being too stupid to stop after fracturing the bone and continuing until I snapped a dime sized piece of bone off the main bone, thus requiring a titanium screw in my right hand.

    That injury and the subsequent recovery taught me several things:

    1 - Shock & broken bones are G-d's way of telling you to sit down.

    2 - Be able to fight, armed or unarmed, ambidextrously.

    I like weapons.

    I like them for strong side and for weak side use.

    I believe in using a weapon before using empty hands because I'm a practical sort who isn't interested in giving an opponent any opportunity for success.

    That said, sometimes they aren't the fastest thing to use, and accessing them can cause you to loose the initiative of immediate attack.

    As for the situation presented, the arm grab, proximity may negate your ability to access a weapon, unless you create an opportunity.

    I don't think it can be debated that tools are useful options.

    The choice remains to determine if they are always the best option.

  11. #55
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    Great thread. A lot to think about. Thanks.
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    Very interesting disscusion...

    I ALWAYS carry a surefire L1 clipped to me weak side front pocket. I have practiced (minimally) the technique of drawing the light, shining the would be attacker square in the eyes to temporarily disorient them and then a few strong blows with the bezel of the light.

    This would not be as effective in broad daylight, but it can still be a grwat last ditch effort.
    I'm married to my Kahr.

  13. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hagphish View Post
    Very interesting disscusion...

    I ALWAYS carry a surefire L1 clipped to me weak side front pocket. I have practiced (minimally) the technique of drawing the light, shining the would be attacker square in the eyes to temporarily disorient them and then a few strong blows with the bezel of the light.

    This would not be as effective in broad daylight, but it can still be a grwat last ditch effort.
    What did your practice consist of?

  14. #58
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    I basically just practiced alone by drawing the light, flashing for about a second in the targeted area, and holding it in a way that striking with the business end would be fast and easy... Musacle memory.

    I did,however, try this while messing around with my 6'5" 200 plus pound buddy. He didn't see it coming (it was in the middle of a sunny day outside) and he was totally disoriented by the flash of light. Needless to say, when it came time for the strike I just gave him a quick tap to the top of his dome.

    I feel fairly comfortable with this technique as a last ditch effort.
    I'm married to my Kahr.

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    Kudos on the post Lima , correct as usual . Have at least one weapon easily accessible to either hand . A guy i used to practice arrest control with is into akido , and what " always worked " just does not when you remove the classroom or " dojo " Back when i was undersheriff in a county here we ran felony stops with real felons from the jail . I was confident in my officers and " bet" the felons on the issue . My eyes were opened as were my officers , and i bought the " jail " 20 pizzas out of my pocket to feed everyone one night as a result . You think about how well armed you are in all likely hood . Your felon thinks about how to use any skills you have against you . Now i set there and saw a " jailbird " take the pistol from a currently trained cooper deciple ( courses one and two whatever they are numbered ) . Its mindset above all and frankly with that in mind we all loose . Your average felon ( acronym vca , not mine lol ) will literally do anything with no mind to the level of force . We as ccw however have to consider a stringent ladder of force , you cant shoot someone for the opening pawn ( the hary eyeball ) . Pay attention , Have weapons available to either hand. I carry a bug , however it and my main gun i can get into either hand . I have seen what felons can do , and it cost me a weeks pay to learn the lesson. That was cheap . As a side note no felon participated who was convicted of a violent crime , basically only dope dealers and check kiters . I did insure tho they had " time " so they could quiz the worst for info and i would see same . The boss did chew my butt for taking inmates on police training of this sort , I took both the chewing and the lessons to heart .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
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    Quote Originally Posted by StevePVB View Post
    Lima & JD,

    I know this is completely off topic. But.. why don't you folks move? I'm not suggesting you abandon our shared feelings of protecting ourselves, but at least find a place to live where it is not a constant battle of discussing how to arm yourselves before you go get the mail (or have a baby).

    I have learned a lot from your posts. I just wish you could educate me less and live in a better neighborhood.

    Steve

    PS JD, Semper Fi Devil Dog
    I know Lima addressed this a few posts up from here (and I don't want to answer for her), but.....
    nowadays it doesn't matter where you live or which store you shop at, scumbags are everywhere anytime of day or night

    I live in a "good" neighborhood on the "good" side of town and there are plenty of home invasions, car robberies, attempted carjackings, abductions at gunpoint, rapes, purse-snatchings, etc on our side of town. My wife and I are armed everytime we go out (and at least one pistol is at hand when at home). Its all about being prepared for the stuff to hit the fan.
    A good example is the Wally World that is in our "good" neighborhood. Its been open for 2 years now and its been the scene of numerous parking lot robberies, attempted carjackings, the ending point of at least 2 police chases, and 2 shootings....and these are just the ones I happen to catch on the news. This is the same Wally World that we shop at...and shop armed!
    Scumbags do not adhere to times of day, socio-economic status, certain sides of town, or certain places.
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