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The Case for Weak-Sided Tools

7K views 74 replies 47 participants last post by  Dingle1911 
#1 ·
In another post in another thread entirely, Sergeant Mac linked this video...

YouTube - Carlie Brucia Abduction

I must have watched the movie at least 3 dozen times by now.

Let's ignore the fact that she had poor situational awareness. She's an eleven year-old girl walking home through a car wash parking lot, but let's forget that for a moment. We all have our moments of weakness and to say that you could never be caught off guard is to be naive. We prepare for the worst, this is the worst, let's role with it. While I would HOPE that all of us would be able to avoid this situation by utilizing good situational awareness, that's not what I want to talk about.

Nor do I want to talk about THIS PARTICULAR situation. It's a tragic situation, for sure, but not what I want to focus on.

What I want to point out is how contact was made.

The attacker in this situation did nothing more and nothing less than grab her right arm. He spends four to five seconds talking to her (more than likely threatening her or promising her she will not be hurt if she complies with his demands) and then he drags her away out of camera view.

All I could think about when I watched this video, time after time after time, was that if she were me, and I were in her place, my first contact with this attacker would have been him grabbing my gun arm. I would be forced to go either hand-to-hand or to move to a weak-sided tool of defense. Which, if you watch the video, would have been more than ideal in this particular scenario. There are several opportunities where a weak-sided defense tool could have been used to escape this situation.

I gave myself a little pat on the back for my decision to carry my Ka-Bar TDI weak-side with my spare mag, but then it plagued me that the TDI is usually the ONLY tool I carry weak-sided (my Ti-Light is strong side as well as any other folders I carry), and what's worse is that I don't ALWAYS carry it. In that case I would be forced to go hand-to-hand in order to free myself; a skill I have not practiced as oft as I should.

In this particular situation, the TDI would have been well utilized (were it available) because the nature of it being a fixed blade would make it easy to deploy needing no special flicks of the wrist or devices to make it ready. A couple stabs and slashs to the abdomen and/or arm and more than likely I would have been free to run and the BG would be picking his intestines off of the pavement.

But I still remembered that I didn't carry my TDI today and no matter how well-utilized a tool could be, it's only as good as it's presence in the situation.

So, to better round my skills, when JD got home from work today I described the scenario to him, told him to grab my gun arm and we walked through some hand-to-hand combat ways to break free and escape (his combat training helps him to better teach me practical and effective ways to escape certain situations and his patience and care make him a very effective teacher).

So, after beating JD up a little bit and going through some other grabs and scenarios I felt a little more prepared should I need to go hand-to-hand but felt that the BEST defense would be a defensive tool (or two) specifically designated for weak-sided combat should the strong side be disabled in some way before a gun can even enter the picture.

My resolve to carry the TDI more often and possibly stick another folder in my left front pocket (or back pocket) was reinforced three-fold.

So what of it? Do you have a designated weak-side defensive tool?

If not, why not?

If so, what do you have and how would you utilize it should your strong side be disabled?
 
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#3 ·
I agree with your point about weak-side weapons.

My weak hand isn't trained enough to open a folder reliably under stress, so I recently started carrying a TDI on my weak side (still accessible to my strong hand). Love this TDI.

I also carry a BUG in my weak-hand front pocket.

I ALWAYS carry these weapons, in addition to my primary. Well, almost always--I haven't figured out how to carry the TDI with a tucked in shirt, but it's pretty rare that I tuck a shirt in.

I don't feel my self-defense package is complete without the TDI and a BUG. Strong hand has spray (spray also accessible to weak hand) and primary weapon available to it.

Options are good.
 
#7 ·
I carry my EDC my P32 in my left pocket. I have always felt that if I were being attacked I would stand a better chance pushing or grabbing with my strong hand and shooting with my left. Though I am right handed I practice shooting left handed pretty often and feel quite comfortable shooting this way. Never realized it might be a better idea than I thought also my knife is accessable to my right hand also.
 
#9 ·
:congrats: Outstanding observation.

Although a support side weapon is a good idea, I don't think that is necessary in this case. I have taught several womens self defense classes and here is what I have come up with. Six extremely simple techniques. Eye gouge, knee strike, head butt, elbow, slap and grab, and a bite.

These are all very dirty fighting techniques, that can be learned with little or no training. The beauty is that they are all you really need to know. Remember although these techniques might knock out your attacker, they are employed to create distance. Once distance is created, the would be victim could draw a gun, pepper spray, stun gun, improvised weapon, or simply run Absent of a support side weapon, and maybe even with it, the goal is to create distance, so that the firearm can be drawn.

If you wanted to keep your tool box small(six techniques) then when you are attacked by someone grabbing your arm, as in the video, simply chose between a small number of techniques, to create distance. And the answer is, bite! If I was holding your wrist and you started bitting at my arm, I would let go. Then you draw the gun.

To a lesser degree, an eye gouge, a slap and grab to his testicles, and maybe a head but would have worked to. She never would have gotten in a good elbow or a good knee, and that is why I teach six, so that you have options, but not too many options. I like to give them a one two. For instance, he grabs your wrist, you eye gouge and then bite. He lets go and you draw your gun.
 
#10 ·
Well, Maryland doesn't let me carry a gun, but if I had the gun on my right hip the folder would be in my left pocket. Therefore I always carry it there, and I practice pulling and opening it left-handed often.

My problem is not being allowed to carry the strong-side tool. :tired:
 
#11 ·
Wow, Lima-- ANOTHER really really great post. Got me thinking :)
I have never carried anything on the weak side, and there is no way to get a pocket pistol out from the strong side pocket if the strong hand is "engaged."

Great post.
 
#12 ·
lima - It's a very good thing that you're running through various scenarios with JD.

You should try to carry an easily accessible support side knife with the longest legal blade length allowed in your state.

Sounds gruesome but, you need to be able to get as deep "in there" as possible and do lots of fast damage to critical internal things.

If you happened to switch places in the exact Carlie Brucia abduction I think you could have ended it fairly quickly since he was wide open and his thoughts were obviously completely occupied in scoping out the location to make certain he was not being seen.

You could easily have pretty much shredded the guy internally with a support side knife thrust upward under the ribs and quickly rocking the blade side to side (using the entrance wound as the pivot point) then pulling hard toward you as you rip the blade out while pulling yourself away.

That would have changed his mind in a huge hurry and he would bleed out of his pumper fast.

If by some remote chance he was still holding on while you're pulling away then quickly hit him again under his left armpit and he'll have no choice but, to release his grip.

Notice though what his right hand is doing while is in the process of grabbing Carlie?
His right hand is simultaniously going into his pocket for something unknown.

Is he just getting Nylon wire ties ready in order to bind her or possibly a gag?
Or has he just armed himself with something?

Regardless...he is still totally oblivious to her actions as he is leading her away.

For some unknown reason he believes that she'll be completely submissive and he was not expecting her to react or act defensively at all.
All of his attention is off of her and his main focus the entire time that he is leading her away is on making sure that nobody else is in the vicinity and getting her to his vehicle (?) off camera.

That is why I am saying that he is Wide Open to a violent instant agressive attack.
 
#14 ·
Great, but?????

lima - It's a very good thing that you're running through various scenarios with JD.

You should try to carry an easily accessible support side knife with the longest legal blade length allowed in your state.

Sounds gruesome but, you need to be able to get as deep "in there" as possible and do lots of fast damage to critical internal things.

If you happened to switch places in the exact Carlie Brucia abduction I think you could have ended it fairly quickly since he was wide open and his thoughts were obviously completely occupied in scoping out the location to make certain he was not being seen.
.
Great, but at exactly what point would lethal force (use of the knife) be justified?

I can imagine situations where someone might suddenly grab you by the arm because they recognize a long lost friend; or need to pull you out of harms way--an oncoming vehicle.

The violet quick response (love it really) though might not be lawful.

At what point is thrusting it in and giving it a twist justified.

(Assume the guy has no weapon and has only said---fill in your own dialog for discussion purposes.)
 
#13 ·
Folder clipped in my Left front Pocket, Small Pepper in left front pocket, 2 Mags in Mag Wallet left back. 1911 3in either IWB Right Back or In Right Front pocket (Depending on clothing)

The pepper may not stop you cold but will buy more than enough time for Mr Colt to come to my assistance.
 
#15 ·
Disparity of force, He is about my size so probably wouldn't happen in first place. But She is a smaller girl, the desparity of force, as soon as he grabs her it is at least unlawful imprisonment so under Florida Law she would be Justified lethal force as soon as a stranger grabs her, if she is "in fear of her life." Florida Law is on the side of the smaller female victim because of some of the monsters that have hurt children here.
 
#17 ·
Another convinced member here, and like Grady above me...I just ordered the KABAR TDI Knife Part Serrated Coyote Brown KA-147CB with belt clip sheath...for $32.97.

Great tip...makes sense...:smily1094:

Stay armed...be on the cutting edge...stay safe!
 
#18 ·
Their are two main factors here, one is appropriate use of force and the other is what you are really prepared to do, morally and ethically in a given situation. This can only be known through education, force on force training, or exposure to real life situations.

My opinion, and I know this will raise a few eyebrows, because we all including me would like to stab somebody. Admit it. But would we be willing to do it. The more aggressive your action, the more justification you are going to have to do, to yourself and the Civil and Criminal Legal system. So the opposite is also true. The less you do to them, the less you will face from the Civil and Criminal Justice System.

I am not saying that you should, under respond to these incident. I am just saying that if you for instance, have pepper spray instead of a knife, you will use the spray way before you will use the knife. Because you know that there are no lasting affects. So even if you misjudged the situation(say the guy was an under cover cop and thought you were a suspect he was looking for) the guy is not laying their in a pool of blood, shot or stabbed.

Example, say you were good at martial arts and you could easily break the suspects grip on you, using an empty hand technique without hurting him. If he grabbed you, you would do this instantly, because you know you are justified, even before he opens his mouth.

If you were going to poke his eye out, you would have to believe that you were in serious danger, which you might not figure out until he says, "Come with me and you I will not kill you." You could have already broken his grip before he said anything if you knew how. Now say that after he says that he wants you go with him. You think, is this guy for real? You are not going to shoot him if you are not sure. But you might not have a problem using the spray. See what I am saying?
 
#50 ·
This is what I get for being away for a day. Thanks for all the great responses.

And for those who admitted that they'd never thought about it before or determined to do better with protecting their weak sides. GREAT! This thread has served its purpose then! :bier:

My opinion, and I know this will raise a few eyebrows, because we all including me would like to stab somebody. Admit it. But would we be willing to do it. The more aggressive your action, the more justification you are going to have to do, to yourself and the Civil and Criminal Legal system. So the opposite is also true. The less you do to them, the less you will face from the Civil and Criminal Justice System.
I agree with what QK said about speaking for yourself here. I would hate to stab anyone. I carry a knife for the same reason I carry a gun, not because I want to use it but because if I have to use it I'd rather have it than not.

But as for the rest of what you said about justifiable force, that's true. The more force you use the more you have to justify it, but I don't think that would be hard for someone like me.

I think full grown men tend to look around at one another more as equals and think, "Well, I don't need to use a defensive tool because one good clock on the side of the head is all it would take from me."

That very well may be true, but I don't see full grown men as my equals when it comes to disparity of force. I don't fear them, but I respect the fact that they are bigger and stronger than me. One good left hook from me MAY NOT be all it takes and I might be in worse shape than I was before because instead of helping my situation I've just made my attacker more angry. No, I'm not taking any chances (especially not with this little one growing in my tummy). I'm going to end the situation as quickly and effectively as possible. I may hate what needs to be done, but I'd hate it worse if I lost my life or the life of my child because I didn't fight hard enough or mean enough.

I also don't think I'd have too hard of a time justifying that to a jury.

In civvies I'm not as prepared, and would have to just rely on a left hook or some such thing. Maybe naive on my part, but I'm a trained infantryman, and by no means small, so I'll probably stick with that.
This is kind of what I was talking about before. You are probably perfectly able to defend yourself hand-to-hand if need be. In fact, you, like my husband, could probably kick some serious butt if all that happened was someone just grabbed your arm.

I've seen my husband fight once and it wasn't even a "real" fight, but he had his opponent on the ground so fast and in a choke-hold so secure the kid's legs were flopping around like a dying fish.

I don't think I'd have QUITE that easy of a time of it. When JD and I "grapple" for training purposes he sometimes has to stifle laughs because I'm really trying my hardest and he's barely fazed. That is why when we "fight" he emphasizes using angles, pressure points and blows to weak points instead of brute strength. I'm no match for any tough guy when it comes to physical strength, but his groin is no match for my knee either (or his eyes to my thumb and so on).

I think this is more of a training issue than a hardware issue.
I think it could be both. Certainly training should be used to prepare you for such an incident should you be unarmed, but the hardware can really give you an edge you may never have had and may never get if you didn't have it.

For instance, let's say you sprained your shoulder playing sports and while it's not a permanent disability it certainly hinders your ability to use its full capacity against your opponent. Suddenly, a tool, could REALLY help you out in that situation.

Or like me. Three and a half months pregnant, sick, weak, off-balance, adapting to a changing body and scared to death for my baby's well-being (especially if some creep grabs me). The little life within me is very fragile and so am I right now. In normal circumstances I very well may be able to use a trained move or technique to break his hold and run away, but yesterday I could barely walk across an airport with JD supporting me and helping me I was in so much pain and discomfort much less run away from a determined attacker.

Sometimes a piece of hardware can really help you out! I'd certainly do all I could without the hardware, but it's nice to have.

You two really have somethin' special...
Yes, we do. Not every couple gets to do force-on-force in their living room willingly. I, for one, am so grateful to have a knowledgeable and skilled husband who will take the time to answer my questions and guide me through what I need to fight back if I have to.

He's also my scenario/idea dummy. Poor guy is getting way to used to me walking out of the bedroom with a blue gun, handing it to him and saying, "Okay, I want to see if this will work. Point this at me from about three feet away and let's see if I can get it away from you," or "Alright, pin me down. I want to try to fight you off."

We haven't done any of the really cool stuff since I got pregnant but we had quite a few interesting sessions of gun retention that left us rolling around on the floor, wrestling, all sorts of cool stuff.

You can speculate all you want but until you try to do it you don't really see JUST how good (or bad) your idea is.

Lima,

I don't carry any weapons on my weak side, and here's why. As a woman with children, I am rarely in public without them. I often must carry one or more of them OR the paraphanelia that accompanies small children. Have you tried to carry a 30 lb toddler astride your KaBar? How about over your EDC? Now, lets talk about how to draw while carrying one kid and holding another's hand.
I'm about to find out about all of this first hand. And I'm sure it's going to be every bit of a challenge as you say.

This is why I did specifically practice with my husband, JD, to get some hand-to-hand practice in for those times when I just can't carry a weak-sided tool.

I would love to carry one 24/7, but the fact of the matter is that's just not possible. I hope I can find a way to do it when I have children, but we'll certainly have to see how that will work out.

Since we are using the Carlie Brucia video as some sort of "starting reference point" indicative of a weaker female having been grabbed by her strong arm - in that situation had she simply broken his hold - what then? - He would have instantly turned and broken her jaw right off her face and crushingly overpowered her in general.

Far better (I think) for a more mature petite female to take every advantage of one possible single opportunity to inflict a preemptive mortal/fatal wound.
That would certainly at least make it impossible for the actual abduction to continue since the perpetrator is going to bleed out and die before too very long.
I agree with you on this. Far better to use what you can, quickly and get away clean than risk the possibility of getting chased, recaptured, and this time by a more aggressive attacker who's not going to give you the benefit of the doubt.

As for Carlie there is probably not much that she could have done to save herself in her situation except for not being in that particular location alone at that time.
However, I don't necessarily agree with this.

If she had the mindset to survive she very well may have found something. And even if she fought and was STILL killed at least she would have gone down fighting.

When I was little (around nine or ten) my sister and I got into an argument about whether or not we would fight if someone tried to kidnap us.

My sister said, "Someone can grab your arm and threaten to break it if you scream."

I don't remember what the outcome of our discussion was but for some reason that sentence has stuck with me and today I think, "SO WHAT?!?! Let him break my arm. That's still not going to keep me from doing all I can to survive. Broken bones heal, death doesn't."

Like it says in my signature, "even death is a poor excuse for not fighting back."

One thing Carlie did have was a purse! It was slung cross body and looked to be a decent size. If all else failed I would have taken that thing, swung it as hard as I could directly at his face. When I was in school I had lots of books in my bags, it would have hurt and if it stunned him enough I could keep hitting, maybe even enough to get someone else's attention or to shock him enough so I could get away.

One thing I rely on for weak-sided defense is my car keys. If I'm walking to and from a store I hold my car keys in my left hand by a hefty hook.

I was once hit by a swinging key and it hurt so bad I have a lot of respect for how much damage a car key can do.

My plan is to swing and hit, not once, but repeatedly and with the fury of a small crazed animal until my attacker has defensive cuts on his hands from covering his face I've plummeted him so many times with those keys.

I will use anything I can, even if it's just my fingernails and teeth if it means survival and even if I end up dead, I'll have so much DNA from my attacker under my fingernails and between my teeth, and he'll have so many scratches and bites and bruises that it would be hard for the police not to catch him.

I think there's something Carlie could have done if only she even knew to try. She was probably never told, just like I was never told, that she was a precious little girl who should fight with every ounce of life she has.

Soon, JD and I will have a little boy or little girl who won't be able to carry a gun or a knife or even pepper spray to school. He or she won't have any designated tools of defense and may find him or herself walking home from school or even just walking down the aisle in between classes or to the bus stop and find him or herself in a situation where he or she needs to defend him or herself.

We can't be there, he can't have tools of defense other than what God gave him and the school allows him, but I hope we train him well enough to where he'll put a #2 pencil through his attacker's eye before he'll let himself be led away to a waiting car or certain death.

My biggest fear, as a mother-to-be, is not that my child will ever be attacked or preyed upon, but that he'll be attacked or preyed upon and I'll watch a video like this of his attack and I'll see that I failed to protect him by not teaching him to fight.

My goal is to teach my child that while I will always try to be there for him, his first line of defense will always start with himself. I want to teach him (or her) to fight.

I know this is completely off topic. But.. why don't you folks move? I'm not suggesting you abandon our shared feelings of protecting ourselves, but at least find a place to live where it is not a constant battle of discussing how to arm yourselves before you go get the mail (or have a baby).
We actually live in a really good area. We just like to be thoroughly prepared for whatever may come. :wink:
 
#20 ·
Well, in my combat gear, I keep a TDI in a spot for my left hand, don't use the knife for anything else really. Just in a spot where most people won't see it and it is at a natural angle to grab.

In civvies I'm not as prepared, and would have to just rely on a left hook or some such thing. Maybe naive on my part, but I'm a trained infantryman, and by no means small, so I'll probably stick with that.

I'm used to carrying a full combat load of over +50#'s around all day, but when I'm off work I don't like feeling that weighed down.
 
#21 ·
Lima, great post.

I definately agree that you should have some sort of weapon accessible to both hands.

I always carry something on my weak-side. If I have to have my shirt tucked in, etc. then it ends up being a gun on my strong side and a folder on each side. For EDC when I can dress how I choose, I carry a push-dagger on my left side and a folder or FB on my right in addition to my pistol.

I think that push-daggers and knives like the TDI excell in this role as they are very intuitive and "gross motor" to use. As most of us do not have as much dexterity with our weak hand, it is nice to have a tool that does not require a lot of skill. With either the PD or the TDI, merely grab the knife and start punching or ripping.

As I've said (time and time again) in other threads, the need for effective H2H skills can not be understated. However that doesn't mean you shouldn't have options available in the weapons department...you need a layered defense strategy.

Hopyard said:
Great, but at exactly what point would lethal force (use of the knife) be justified?

I can imagine situations where someone might suddenly grab you by the arm because they recognize a long lost friend; or need to pull you out of harms way--an oncoming vehicle.

The violet quick response (love it really) though might not be lawful.

At what point is thrusting it in and giving it a twist justified.

(Assume the guy has no weapon and has only said---fill in your own dialog for discussion purposes.)
No one said you should automatically shank anyone who touches you, let's use a little common sense here.

In the type of situation that started the thread, I see no problem with application of deadly force. You have a woman grabbed by a man who she doesn't know and who is significantly larger and stronger. If he does not immediately comply with an order to "back the **** off," then it's time to show him what his guts look like. Then, once he does let go, draw your pistol and be ready to use it if necessary as you are getting the hell out of there.
 
#22 ·
There are a TON of martial arts techniques for breaking someone's grip on you. I'm no expert by any means, but I haven't met anyone whose grip I can't break. At the end of the day, most people don't seem to have the pain tolerance to deal with a hard rap of knuckles to the back of the hand. It's surprisingly painful; even just a hard rubbing of knuckles on the back of the hand will hurt a surprising amount.

Worth learning a few techniques; not as a replacement for weapons but as a compliment.
 
#23 ·
The OP is why I carry more than one gun.

I have a gun accessable to either hand, and one accessable to me when sitting down. I've been carrying two guns for years, but have recently gone to carrying three.

Stay safe and watch your back.

Biker :tumbleweed:
 
#28 ·
...I've been carrying two guns for years, but have recently gone to carrying three.
Biker :tumbleweed:
Finally, I'm not the only one here who carries 3 guns on this forum. Not all the time, but frequently. :hand10:

Got a lot of ridicule on other threads for admitting that. Not that it bothered me... Sometimes I only carry one! :rofl:
 
#24 ·
Weakside defensive weapon is either Colt Mustang or Charter Arms Bulldog in left front pocket. I have been thinking about a knife option for that side, but it would have to be the right knife. My left wrist has been damaged several times as has the left hand. The Mustang or the Bulldog are easy enough to use, but the knife requires more finesse than they do so it would have to be one I was very comfortable with.
 
#36 ·
For Dr. CMG



When you carry the Mustang on the weak side, assuming you are a right handed individual, how do you manage to release the safety? It is not an ambidextrous gun. Did you have some work done on it to make it ambidextrous?
 
#25 ·
Good topic! This is my usual attire. I have my main carry M&P on my right side along with a CS Recon 1 clipped to pocket. On my left I have in my pocket a Walther PPS. Weak rear pocket and left cargo are a Kershaw Blur and CRKT M16-14SFA. And a Ka-Bar TDI on the belt opposite the M&P, available to either hand. I am getting a custom sheath for the TDI soon. This is not including extra mags (at least two) and flashlights (also at least two). Yeah, about 12 pounds of stuff. But, I can so I do.
 
#26 ·
JudoJake........Where did that come from?
Admit it...We would all like to stab someone???? :confused:
The remainder of your post is pretty decent but, I think you had just better speak for yourself on that one. :yup:


My opinion, and I know this will raise a few eyebrows, because we all including me would like to stab somebody. Admit it.
 
#27 ·
That particular hold is easily defeated in two ways (at least).
1~ ‘Hollow out’ strong side; take a medium to large step at a 45 degree angle outward to the rear, while Keeping your balance. At the same time, pulling arm into your body as best you can. Pulling the attacker off balance just a bit, go for an eye gouge aiming for the bridge of the nose. Your thumb will side into one of the eyes, worse case you will miss and break your thumb. If that happens or not follow up with a upward palm strike to the base of the chin.

2~ Again ‘hollow out’ as above, rotate your fist to the center of the body through and downward the attackers arm (thumb side) this will break the grip and your strong side is free to defend yourself as fit.

I hope that made sense, I’m not great describing things in print. I’m more of a “grab my arm” kinda guy. :blink:
 
#29 ·
When possible (i.e. not working in restricted areas etc.) I've got my Kel-Tec, Spyderco Endura, and Surefire E2DL all accessible to my offhand. My strong side has the XD and Benchmade. I've found it's much easier to open a waved knife with my weak hand than it is to reliably flick open the axis lock. I may try to find a centerline carry option for the P3AT if I can ever get rid of this gut... as it is now, my body type dictates what I carry, as well as how and where it gets carried.
 
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