SC: H. 3212 action needed by Senate (Reciprocity bill)

This is a discussion on SC: H. 3212 action needed by Senate (Reciprocity bill) within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; *** GrassRoots Action Alert *** Attention Concealed Weapon Permit (CWP) holders! 20 May 2008 It is crunch time for H. 3212, the concealed weapon permit ...

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Thread: SC: H. 3212 action needed by Senate (Reciprocity bill)

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    Member Array SCGunGuy's Avatar
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    SC: H. 3212 action needed by Senate (Reciprocity bill)

    *** GrassRoots Action Alert ***

    Attention Concealed Weapon Permit (CWP) holders!
    20 May 2008
    It is crunch time for H. 3212, the concealed weapon permit (CWP) recognition/reciprocity bill that has been awaiting Senate action since March 26, 2008, when the House refused to concur with the Senate amendment just as GrassRoots GunRights asked them to refuse to do.

    The Senate version of H. 3212 is completely unacceptable to gun owners. GrassRoots GunRights provided a detailed analysis of the Senate amendment to H. 3212 to every member of the House in a letter dated March 24, 2008. The GrassRoots analysis - which is repeated below - exposes exactly why the Senate amendment would make South Carolina CWP law worse than existing law. Interestingly, the Senate amendment would change the law so drastically that South Carolina could not even get reciprocity with itself! The Senate version of H. 3212 should be opposed by all pro gun rights supporters!

    Multiple independent practicing pro gun rights attorneys have read the GrassRoots analysis of the Senate version of H. 3212, and all have agreed the GrassRoots analysis is legally sound (their letters of agreement can be found on the GrassRoots web site). Not a single independent practicing pro gun rights attorney has found fault with the GrassRoots analysis of H. 3212.

    Read the rest of the story here.

    *** ACTION STEPS: ***


    Email every senator who represents people from the county in which you live. Tell these politicians that "GrassRoots GunRights speaks for me on H. 3212!" The pro gun House is listening to GrassRoots GunRights, but the anti gun Senate is pushing a terrible bill. Politicians need to know GrassRoots GunRights speaks for gun owners in South Carolina, or else you will get the Senate version of H. 3212. Contact information is below.

    Call your senator and tell them "GrassRoots GunRights speaks for me on H. 3212!" Use the Senate switchboard (803) 212-6200, or use the individual office numbers listed below.

    Contact Sen. Knotts and let him know how you feel about his betrayal of gun owners. His email is SIV@scsenate.org and his office phone number is (803) 212-6350.

    See the full text and all contact info for senators by reading the GrassRoots GunRights alert
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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array tns0038's Avatar
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    Thanks for the post;

    Everyone should know that this is for South Carolina Senate, not the US Senate

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    VIP Member Array crzy4guns's Avatar
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    Thanks for the post SCGunGuy, and thanks for clarifying that tns0038!
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    Ex Member Array FN1910's Avatar
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    I have written my Representatives and Senators about this but in opposition to the House version of this bill. Before you condemn me for this I would like to point out that the House version is great of out-of-state residents but bad for SC residents. Using the same rhetoric as SC Grass Roots uses on the Senate version the House version will not permit SC residents to carry in 30+ states but rather remove many states.

    The House Version (HV) removes the ability to establish reciprocity with another state. Therefore for a SC resident to carry in another state that state must grant recogniotion rather than reciprocity. I don't know how many states actually are recognition states rather than reciprocal but most are. FL will is one state that will recognize any state that recognizes theirs but there would be no way to formalize the agreement between the two states and SC residents would be at the mercy of the goodness of their heart in FL. I for one do not trust other states to grant recognition to SC residents without being able to provide some incentive.

    The HV also says that we will recognize a permit from any other state. Without reciprocity the holder of other states permits will fall under the laws of that state. This means that someone holding a TN permit will be able to OC in SC and a resident of some states as young as 16 will be able to carry while SC residents must continue to follow SC laws. If we are goint to let TN residents OC then the SC residents should also OC.

    I realize that many do not agree with my interpretation but I am using the same logic to interpret the House Version as SC Grass Roots is using to interpret the Senate Version that SC would not be able to establish reciprocity with itself. I have pointed out these things to my state Legislatures and they have agreed with me on these possible interpretation. If the House Version should pass I am sure we will find out the correct interpretation in our courts shortly.

    The House Version sounds to me as being written and supported by residents of GA more than anything an SC resident would support. As I see it the main benificiaries of the House Version are the residents of GA. FL, NE, ME, CO,MN and NV would be added with the Senate version bringing the total that would recognize SC permits to 29. Maybe they are trying to pay us back for legalizing the lottery in SC.

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    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    The HV also says that we will recognize a permit from any other state. Without reciprocity the holder of other states permits will fall under the laws of that state. This means that someone holding a TN permit will be able to OC in SC and a resident of some states as young as 16 will be able to carry while SC residents must continue to follow SC laws. If we are goint to let TN residents OC then the SC residents should also OC.
    No...someone with an out of state permit will still need to follow SC law. I think your logic is flawed. Look at other reciprocity/recognition laws--nowhere is the situation as you describe. Reciprocity = documented legal agreement between two states (i.e. PA and VA). Recognition = promulgated by law that one state will recognize other state's permit (i.e. IN and VA).
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    Ex Member Array FN1910's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    No...someone with an out of state permit will still need to follow SC law. I think your logic is flawed. Look at other reciprocity/recognition laws--nowhere is the situation as you describe. Reciprocity = documented legal agreement between two states (i.e. PA and VA). Recognition = promulgated by law that one state will recognize other state's permit (i.e. IN and VA).
    There was a recent thread on either this board or another about a method of obtaining a permit to carry in NC before the age of 21. It seems that in NC you are required to be 21 to obtain a NC permit but since NC honors permits from certain other states that issue permits younger than 21 they are honored in NC. This person was a NC resident and at age 19 was able to obtain an out-of-state permit from a state with that NC honors and was therefore able to legally carry concealed in NC under the age of 21. He had checked with the local sherrif and state AG on the legality of it and both had come to the conclusion that it was legal.

    Remember that with the House Version of H 3212 there is no provision for reciprocity with another state, only recognition of permits from other states permits and no requirement for them to recognize SC's.

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    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FN1910 View Post
    There was a recent thread on either this board or another about a method of obtaining a permit to carry in NC before the age of 21. It seems that in NC you are required to be 21 to obtain a NC permit but since NC honors permits from certain other states that issue permits younger than 21 they are honored in NC. This person was a NC resident and at age 19 was able to obtain an out-of-state permit from a state with that NC honors and was therefore able to legally carry concealed in NC under the age of 21. He had checked with the local sherrif and state AG on the legality of it and both had come to the conclusion that it was legal.

    Remember that with the House Version of H 3212 there is no provision for reciprocity with another state, only recognition of permits from other states permits and no requirement for them to recognize SC's.
    So the law doesn't prohibit NC residents from first seeking a NC permit? So what's the big deal? Can't another NC resident seek another state's permit? Doesn't sound like a bad deal.

    Back to your OP--does that mean, I, as a VA CHP holder, can open carry in NC? (btw--you do not need a permit to open carry in VA). No it does not.

    I guess I fail to see a problem here...
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    Ex Member Array FN1910's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    So the law doesn't prohibit NC residents from first seeking a NC permit? So what's the big deal? Can't another NC resident seek another state's permit? Doesn't sound like a bad deal.

    Back to your OP--does that mean, I, as a VA CHP holder, can open carry in NC? (btw--you do not need a permit to open carry in VA). No it does not.

    I guess I fail to see a problem here...
    An 18 year-old holding a New Hampshire permit can CC in NC. An 18 year old NC resident can obtain a NH non resident permit and CC in NC. An 18 year old cannot obtain a NC CC permit. Why should NC recognize permits for 18 year olds from other states if they will not allow an 18 year old to obtain a NC permit?

    The problem is that if a TN resident can OC in SC then I also want to be able to OC in SC. If SC is going to grant full recognition to all states then I want something in return. The House version of this bill provides full recognition to all states but does nothing for the people of SC. There NO wording in the bill that provides any benefit or reference to the residents of SC. This would be the same as the US granting full citizenship rights to foreigners but keeping restrictions on US citizens.

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    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FN1910 View Post
    The problem is that if a TN resident can OC in SC then I also want to be able to OC in SC.
    I'm sorry, I'm missing the "fact" in this statement. If SC prohibits OC...then someone from another OC-state CANNOT OC. I think you are reading too much into the bill.

    It's like saying, hey in Montana, I can drive 75mph, because that is what the law allows. For the sake of argument, I have a DL and vehicle registered for Montana--when I go to another state, do I drive 55mph (as indicated by signage) or because I am from Montana, only I can go 75mph without getting a ticket?

    You follow the laws of the state you are IN, not where you are FROM.
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    Ex Member Array FN1910's Avatar
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    If I am a resident of NC and own a boat and trailer then I have to have a license on the trailer issued by the DOT. If I am a resident of SC then I do not have to have a licensed on my trailer even if I use it in NC. When licenses and permits are involved you do not always follow the laws of the state you are in. If NC passed a law that specifically said that all trailers have to have a license then I would have to get one. In fact SC does offer a trailer license for certain trailers traveling through states where it is required. NC is not one of them.

    If SC and NC were to sign a reciprocity agreement concerning licensed drivers and boat owners then I would have to have a license but since each state is a recognition state then I do not. I do not know if all states require a motorcycle operators license but if they don't a resident from that state would still be eligible to ride a motorcycle in SC. I know this from years ago before SC offered motorcycle license.

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    Member Array hpj3's Avatar
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    You need to go back to the drawing board on this...
    You must follow the laws of the state you're in. All the laws. If your state allows something, but the state you're in does not, then you can't do it.

    We have fought hard to get this bill going... and it has been vetted by 4 independent pro-gun lawyers. It is a good thing for SC residents.

    I don't know where you're getting your info from, but since the Senate version is being pushed by Jake Knotts - and it is a disaster - I'd guess that's where it's coming from.

    The House version is the best for us.

    Howard
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    Ex Member Array FN1910's Avatar
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    You must follow the laws of the state you're in
    Where does SC law say that you must be 21 to Conceal Carry a weapon? It does say that you have to be 21 to obtain a permit but does not say that you have to be 21 to carry a weapon. There may be a law against someone younger than 21 carrying a concealed weapon with a CWP but I can't find it.

    We have fought hard to get this bill going... and it has been vetted by 4 independent pro-gun lawyers. It is a good thing for SC residents.
    These independent pro-gun lawyers that you are refering to only commented on the problems with the first Senate version of the bill rather than the final version passed by the Senate. The made not comment that I could find about the House version. However SLED and several others including members of the legislature pointed out the problems with the House version. You may be correct that it may be good for SC residents but it is much better for non-SC residents.

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    Senior Member Array XD in SC's Avatar
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    Residents of reciprocal states who hold permits issued by their states of residence may carry concealed firearms in South Carolina, but must abide by the restrictions in the South Carolina CWP law. For that reason, out of state residents of reciprocal states should familiarize themselves with restricted carry locations and other provisions of South Carolina law posted on this website. South Carolina permittees who carry firearms in reciprocal states are likewise responsible for familiarizing themselves with the applicable laws and regulations of the reciprocal state. Web sites of those states may be accessed by selecting the desired state name listed above.


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    Ex Member Array FN1910's Avatar
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    Under the House version of 3212 there will no longer be any states with reciprocity. That version eliminates it.

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    Member Array SCGunGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FN1910 View Post
    Under the House version of 3212 there will no longer be any states with reciprocity. That version eliminates it.
    So we lose reciprocity--big deal, because we will gain recognition with a bunch of states with whom we will NEVER have reciprocity under any law that will be supported by Jake Knotts and the NRA in SC. Yes, we won't have a formalized agreement wherein SLED makes a determination. Rather, we'll have a formalized agreement where we recognize state X's permit and state X recognizes ours. We won't be depending on the "goodwill of the people of Florida", as I believe you put it, but on the laws of the respective states.

    As for the whole North Carolina "issue" you cite, what is the relevance to the bill before us in SC? If NC law stipulates that a NC resident aged 18 can't get a NC permit, but also stipulates that any person with a permit from a state that NC recognizes, may carry, what's the problem? Their law would be stupid, if that is the case, but what's new about stupid laws?

    Jake Knotts is now threatening to filibuster if the House version is brought up for a vote in the Senate. I say, bring it on! The NRA has used as a marketing gimmick for their inferior Senate bill the warning that "the House bill can't pass the Senate, so we had to come up with a bill that could." Now, it seems apparent that Jake Knotts is the roadblock to passage of the House bill.

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    Last edited by SCGunGuy; May 29th, 2008 at 07:48 AM. Reason: Removed a somewhat derogatory and hostile sentence.
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