Ugly-argument over gun. Seattle Festival (merged) - Page 4

Ugly-argument over gun. Seattle Festival (merged)

This is a discussion on Ugly-argument over gun. Seattle Festival (merged) within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I remember a recent thread here where a dc member put his hand down his pants (smartcarry) and shouted at what could have been a ...

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Thread: Ugly-argument over gun. Seattle Festival (merged)

  1. #46
    Ex Member Array TacticalCompact's Avatar
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    I remember a recent thread here where a dc member put his hand down his pants (smartcarry) and shouted at what could have been a threat entering his garage as he and his family prepared to leave for dinner. The guys reaction was to walk down the street shouting "dudes jacked up on something."

    I think that we train ourselves to be very aggressive and loud when in a situation where you must draw down, or even if someone tries to disarm us. I'm sure to the average sheeple, we'd all have the appearance of "being very high on somethng" when we start going nuts and have a gun in our hands. Hell, to most of them were already crazy just for owning a gun let alone holding it and screaming "get the **** away!"

    I will also reserve judgment.


  2. #47
    Member Array Dusty Miller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrhutch View Post
    does WA not have laws against carrying at a public gathering?
    And that would accomplish what?

  3. #48
    Member Array riverkeeper's Avatar
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    With respect to tatoos, goth stuff, hippie dress and anything else that humans use to distinguish their pathetic group or status from others ... John Hartford's opening line from Natural to Be Gone (about 1968)

    "What's the difference being different, When it's difference now that looks alike?"
    Old testament....Shooting to Live 1942
    http://www.gutterfighting.org/files/...ng_to_live.pdf
    Newer testament... Kill or Get Killed 1976/1987
    http://www.gutterfighting.org/files/...Get_Killed.pdf

  4. #49
    Member Array biasedbulldog's Avatar
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    Agreed on holding back judgment. There's a classic YouTube video (two videos actually) which I'm sure most of you have seen showing a police shooting from two different squad-car cameras. The first angle shows what appears to be a cop gunning down a black man from behind arbitrarily as he walks away. The "victim" appears irate but is walking away. The second angle shows what the first misses -- that the man's right hand holds a gun, which he held across his body and shot at a second police officer off screen before the police opened fire.

    It may have looked like he was "on drugs" and "pistol-whipping" some sod, but perhaps he was screaming, "Get your hands off my pistol" -- which is exactly what I would be doing if for whatever reason there was a scramble over mine... and perhaps the one who got pistol-whipped was lucky if he was trying to wrestle the man's gun away.

    Or maybe he was on drugs and aggressive.

    At this point, who knows?

    (as an aside, if you get tattooed, you should do so with the knowledge that you *will* be judged by that. If I ever get a tattoo, it will never be that visible, because it *will* harm you in an eyewitness situation or in court, for that matter. Unfair, maybe, but it comes with the territory. At least you have a choice about something that will incur prejudice; consider how many others don't)
    "War necessarily brings with it some virtues, and great and heroic virtues too. What horrid creatures we men are, that we cannot be virtuous without murdering one another?" -John Adams

  5. #50
    Member Array bal_g23's Avatar
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    Not to say I Told You So Buuut....

    In regards to my previous thread about the shooting at the Seattle folklife festival in which i was near

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...al-merged.html

    In an article in todays Seattle Post Intelligencer:
    A King County judge set bail at $350,000 Monday for a 22-year-old Snohomish County man suspected of firing a bullet that tore through one man's nasal passage, passed through a second man's hand and finally lodged in the leg of a nearby woman at last weekend's Northwest Folklife Festival.

    The man, Clinton Chad Grainger, could face three counts of second-degree assault from the Saturday evening incident at Seattle Center, a King County prosecutor said. Grainger does not have a criminal history of similar offenses, but suffers substance abuse and mental health problems, authorities said.

    Grainger's father told the judge that his son lived with him, holds down a job and is preparing for community college. "He's not a flight risk, I don't believe, because he's under doctors' care, medication. He couldn't leave if he wanted to," he told the judge. "Generally, he's a good kid and is not a flight risk. ... I'll guarantee that he makes all of his court dates."

    Grainger, who has not yet been charged, said nothing to the judge. He was represented by a public defender, but his father said he would ultimately be defended by the family's private attorney, who is out of town until next week. After the hearing, the father declined to comment further. The shooting occurred during a physical altercation between Grainger and another man at the annual festival, Deputy Prosecutor Jamila Taylor told the judge. "During this struggle, the defendant reached for and grabbed an ankle holster which was secured to his ankle. (The other man) attempted to stop him and ... the weapon was discharged," she said. "The bullet went through the (man's) nasal passage."

    The first man was shot at very close range, judging by "stippling" on his lips -- or rash-like markings from unburned gunpowder -- Taylor said. "After the police arrived and identified themselves as police, (Grainger) still continued to struggle to try and get the weapon, to gain control of the weapon again," she said.

    Taylor had asked the judge to set bail at $500,000, noting that three people were injured by his single shot and that Grainger's gun had a full magazine with 15 more cartridges.

    "We believe from the facts of this case that the defendant is a grave danger to the community," she said. Police said hundreds of people were near the shooting.

    "There were family members there. There were children there," she said.

    Court records indicate Grainger has, "a history of anxiety and schizophrenia, which he takes meds for, and that he's on a methadone program," she said.

    Grainger's attorney had asked the judge to set the bail lower or release him without bail.

    The judge agreed to reduce it, she said, partly because Grainger had no history of such crimes. "I believe he has a family that will support him and enable him and assist him in making his appearances to all court dates."

    Still, the judge added that she is concerned Grainger is a risk to public safety since he allegedly showed up to a music festival with a loaded gun, suffers mental health and substance abuse problems and "the fact that one bullet could cause so much damage to three different people."

    Looks like my instincts were dead on, as were my friends account of the story

  6. #51
    Member Array realitycramp's Avatar
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    So did this guy have a permit? With that history I sure hope not.
    Facts are negotiable, perceptions are not.

  7. #52
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    I don't see how he could have a concealed handgun license if he is under a doctors care for mental health issues and substance abuse or even legally buy a gun without lying on the ffl form where it asks if you use illegal drugs
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  8. #53
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    This article adds some detail... and like the article the OP provided, doesn't mention a CPL.

    Local News | $350,000 bail set for suspect in shooting at Northwest Folklife Festival | Seattle Times Newspaper

    With the heavy liberal slant of the Northwest media... I highly doubt such a fact would be overlooked. Still... no reliable source is saying yes or no.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  9. #54
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    The initial news report stated he had a permit. I bet someone is going back to look to see if it was complete...and checked.

    Does WA have a provision to check public health records?
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

    martyr is a fancy name for crappy fighter
    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

  10. #55
    Member Array mrhutch's Avatar
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    *sigh* one wacko falls through the cracks and manages to get a permit and a weapon that he should be medically excluded from, and now i bet the rest of us will be paying for it.

  11. #56
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    The initial news report stated he had a permit. I bet someone is going back to look to see if it was complete...and checked.

    Does WA have a provision to check public health records?
    King5 ran the initial report and this follow up:
    Accused Folklife Festival shooter appears in court | Local News | KING5.com | News for Seattle, Washington

    They are the only ones saying he had a CPL to my knowledge, and to me, that means little. King5 always rushes to release sensational statements regardless of fact. It doesn't mean they're wrong, but in my experience they don't wait to make sure they're right.

    As far as the law, the citation is here:
    RCW 9.41.070: Concealed pistol license — Application — Fee — Renewal.
    (includes links to applicable crimes/status that exclude one from obtaining a CPL).

    There's no law to share public health records. In WA, as far as I know, the only exclusion for mental health issues is if you have been court ordered treatment, found innocent by reason of insanity, etc.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  12. #57
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Damn.

    Now there goes a whole 'festival' full of people who forever will be deeply entrenched as anti gun _and_ anti citizen carry.
    Why? Because some a guy with documented mental issues and lack of self control happened to be in attendance. To which he and and some other nut got their Pumas smudged and as result they escalated it into a physical altercation resulting in he going for and unholstering a firearm to assumedly 'shoot to stop'...amongst a tight space crowd (!) of people.

    It's situations like this that show how a pistol as a defensive weapon, even if the guy had been lawful to carry and was in fact defending himself, is not always the best or should be first tool to go to. Had he been carrying a knife under such conditions he'd have been better off toward retention as well as functional defense of himself without harming uninvolved others in the background.
    Now because he has a mental history alone regardless of his reasoning at the time and even if he were in fact being victimized his past will sway judge and jury toward his judgment and ability to make one. Meanwhile the other guy who was shot through the nose (face!) will have no charges, likely sue for civil damages, and be scarred for life even as he quite possibly could have been the initiator if not instigator.

    Meh. :(

    Reason number 6,345,789 to carry a good accessible and _sharp_ defensive knife of some sort in addition to a pistol and/or spray (which also would have been fubar under these conditions).

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  13. #58
    Member Array Zach and Holly's Avatar
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    To me, this is just another case of a criminal with a gun. I say criminal because regardless of any mental health issues, he drew a gun when he got "mad" and it went off. You are a criminal if you draw a gun when you are mad with an intent to harm. Being mad and defending your life are obviously completely different and it appears clear what happened here...

    I've taken countless courses on mental disabilities and participated in discussion about whether someone with these disabilities should be excluded from the law because they can't help it, or are otherwise unaware of what they are doing. I'd say "most" folks agree, with exception to immediate family members that the person is still a danger, and still a criminal whether they know what they are doing or not. The definition of criminal is performing certain acts. It's funny when people claim they can't help it or don't realize what they're doing. You don't hear about people cracking open a beer and playing with their dog on "accident" do you? But yet all these moron criminals are quick to blame disabilities on the "bad" things they do. And of course there's always some "syndrome" brought on by the defense. Pretty soon we'll probably be hearing he has "happy trigger syndrome"! It's a new chemical imbalance that keeps your mind from being able to tell if you're pulling the trigger or not when you draw your weapon on someone.
    It is utterly illogical to believe that passing laws to reduce gun violence will be successful when those who are commiting the gun violence do not obey the law.

  14. #59
    VIP Member Array AZ Husker's Avatar
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    Amazing...the article called it a Magazine, not a Clip!
    Add another reason to avoid ankle holsters.
    Treat me good, I'll treat you better. Treat me bad, I'll treat you worse.

  15. #60
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    +1 Janq!

    I'm also thinking it sounds like this guy was reaching for his gun for all the wrong reasons. It would be interesting to hear his side of the story.
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

    "A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
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