May 28th, 2008 01:59 PM
Thought I'd throw my 2 cents in. Since I've hung around with "motorcycle enthusiasts" I don't really judge a person by their tattoos. When you consider most serial murderers are "decent" looking and sometimes have families, it doesn't really matter what someone looks like. What I tend to look for is attitude and behavior. If someone acts like a criminal I'll treat them like a criminal. If they act civil, no matter how they're dressed or marked, I'll treat them civil.
Member NRA, SAF and Georgiacarry.org
“America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.” Abraham Lincoln
May 28th, 2008 02:51 PM
I would say a person should always expect the worst but hope for the best when it comes to "profiling" everyone. You can never know with some people what there really about. Always be aware.
May 28th, 2008 02:58 PM
BTK killer is a good example
Originally Posted by ronwill
May 28th, 2008 03:18 PM
Awareness Games, Self Training
Originally Posted by gilraen
FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin - March 2006 Issue
While examining clothing characteristics and behavioral traits, officers also must consider the individual location, surroundings, and circumstances inherent in each encounter. They must ask why a subject is dressed in such a manner, moving in a particular way, or shifting body positions.
Because the male offenders in all of their studies reported regularly carrying handguns in the middle torso area, the authors focus their discussion on this part of the body. But, they also present their findings relative to female offenders, which offer some interesting insights that officers may unwittingly overlook. For example, one female offender had a small .38-caliber revolver hidden in the pocket of her short skirt. Two officers attempted to arrest her and a male companion for armed robbery. She related that initially one officer approached each of them; however, without searching her, he left her and went to help his partner with the male offender. She promptly walked up to the officers and shot and killed both of them.
Specific observations regarding a person’s attire may indicate that the individual is armed. These may include, but are not limited to, what individuals are wearing during warm versus cold or inclement weather conditions, as well as accessory items and unconventional weapons designed and manufactured for concealment that they may carry.
Warm Weather Conditions
Is the individual dressed inappropriately for existing weather and temperature conditions? A person who attempts to conceal a weapon may wear or carry additional clothing other than that required or appropriate. This suspicious behavior is particularly observable in warm weather. Why would an individual wear a jacket, sweatshirt, sweater, raincoat, or overcoat on a bright sunny day when others are dressed in short-sleeved shirts? Is the individual wearing multilayered clothing, such as two shirts or a pair of sweatpants over a pair of jeans, on a hot day? Similarly, why does a man wearing a shirt and tie, suit trousers, and dress shoes have his shirttail hanging out? Less obvious are individuals in casual attire with their shirttails outside their pants. Such inappropriate apparel can cover areas of the body where criminals frequently conceal firearms. Alert officers, however, may notice a slight bulge or protrusion that raises their suspicions.
Obviously, officers can visually detect firearms easier on individuals dressed appropriately for warm weather. They should look for unnatural protrusions or bulges in the waist, back, and crotch areas and watch for less conspicuous cues, such as shirts that appear rippled or wavy on one side of the body while the fabric on the other side appears smooth. Many offenders in the authors’ three studies revealed that they purposely transported weapons in their crotch areas as much for concealment as the reluctance of officers to thoroughly search this location.
Cold and Inclement
Are individuals with a coat, raincoat, or jacket draped over their arms unnecessarily exposing themselves to the elements? What about those wearing a hooded jacket or coat in the rain or snow without the hood covering the head? One offender stated that he had several friends who carried firearms in their jacket hoods. Also, in periods of extremely cold weather, why would people not fasten their jackets or heavy coats? Could it be that they want quick access to a firearm?
When individuals have on jackets and coats, are these pieces of clothing visibly weighted to one side, giving the appearance of an unusually heavy object in the pocket? Normally, personal items, such as wallets, keys, pagers, and cell phones, do not weigh enough to cause a pocket to hang substantially lower than the one on the opposite side.
Accessory and Other Items Carried
In cold weather conditions, individuals may have a hand warmer attached to their clothing or person in some manner. If these people appear to have been outside for some time, why are their hands not inside the device? If they have on gloves, why do they need the hand warmer? Does it exhibit ripples or waves in the fabric, giving the appearance of containing a heavy object?
What about individuals carrying such items as purses, knapsacks, soft briefcases, gym bags, folded-over newspapers, or paper bags that appear out of place? Do these articles display a protrusion? Is the outline of the frame of a handgun or a partial contour, such as the barrel or butt, visible?
If a person is wearing a fanny pack, can a wallet be seen in a pants pocket? If so, what is in the fanny pack? Does it appear weighted with a heavy object? Most types can conceal a handgun and may include a draw string or a quick-release closure method added for rapid access.
Officers need to remain vigilant for a separate class of firearms designed for concealment. Generally constructed without sights, these weapons, referred to as “belly guns,” usually are inaccurate unless fired at a very close range. Manufacturers also have produced handguns intentionally disguised as other objects, including pens, pagers, cell phones, belt buckles, and wallets. Offenders have related that they possessed such weapons to use against law enforcement personnel who may overlook them during arrest or transport situations. The use of a hand-held magnetometer can assist officers in detecting these types of handguns and other potentially dangerous metal instruments, such as knives and razors.
Case Example #1
Officers responded to a domestic disturbance call involving a woman who allegedly had threatened several people with a gun but had driven away prior to the officers’ arrival. The police department broadcast a description of the woman and the vehicle. A short time later, officers found a woman sitting in the driver’s seat of the suspect vehicle. The female officer searched the woman but found no weapon. She was allowed to use a public restroom where she removed a .38-caliber revolver from between her buttocks and shot the female officer. Although mortally wounded, the female officer returned fire and killed the subject.
In the authors’ three studies, none of the offenders who carried firearms used holsters. They reported frequently touching the weapon with a portion of their hands or arms usually to assure themselves that it remained hidden, secure, and accessible. Such actions become most observable whenever individuals change body positions, such as standing, sitting, or exiting a motor vehicle. Their unholstered handguns tend to shift, causing them to adjust or reposition the weapon to its original position. Walking with a concealed, unholstered handgun requires subjects to occasionally use a portion of their hands or arms to prevent the firearm from moving or to adjust the weapon after it moves. When they run, their actions may appear more pronounced and may involve constantly gripping the handgun to maintain control.
The majority of female offenders who carried their own weapon preferred small-framed revolvers or automatic pistols. Their choice place of concealment was in a pocket of their outer clothing, with quick retrieval as their primary concern.
Females often carried a weapon for a male companion prior to or after criminal activity. But, interestingly, no female offender reported giving her weapon to anyone to carry for her.
Law enforcement training teaches officers to keep their gun side away from individuals during street contacts or interviews. Armed criminals do the same in encounters with law enforcement professionals to ensure concealment and easy access to their firearms. As one offender said, “If they’re on that side of me, they can’t see it. I can also get to it quicker if I need to. Because they can’t see what I’m reaching for, I get that extra second.”
May 28th, 2008 03:21 PM
Yup. For someone like the BTK, you have to watch for small quirks in behavior, odd reactions to things, or things that don't make sense.
Like the guy up on the Yukon who said he was going fishing for Black Bass, who was actually killing people at the boat ramp.
That sort of problem is unusual, though, as much as they grab headlines.
May 28th, 2008 04:25 PM
That was a lot to swallow, CR2008. But thanks. I should probably sit outside and spend time just people watching.
Still don't know what the red flags are, that are associated with the guy in post #134.
May 29th, 2008 02:27 AM
I think there have been some very good comments on this subject but what I find hard to grasp is how some have determined what is "normal" for everyone, that seems kind of arrogant in my opinion. Some people grow up in areas where normal is an entirely different thing than it may be in other areas. Why is long hair not normal? It was in the 60's, it probably was in Old testament times etc.... If you grew up in a hardcore biker family probably every family friend, parents and grandparents were tattooed. Wouldnt that seem normal to you then? Personally if being normal just means conforming to others grand perception of "normal" I'll pass thanks. Most people that have bizarre (to most of us) piercings and say, facial tattoos are just after shock value or rebellion and I usually find much more harmless than someone that is probably hiding something. FWIW, I am 6'2'', 235lb, shaved head, long goatee, some tats, couple of piercings, ride very fast motorcycles, love extreme fighting, very active church member, loved by kids (not just my own) and was just asked by the church tonight to take on watching about twenty-five 4 year olds on wednesdays so that parents can participate in deeper Bible study. Apparently some here on this forum would not leave their kids with me and that would be too bad. Sure you can profile me, I have no problem with that, just dont call me normal. Actions speak louder than looks.
PS: sorry for the long rant, I usually never go over 2 lines!!
May 29th, 2008 02:41 AM
I agree with the above post that "normal" is relative. One of my best friends of whom is in the military has many tattoos and might in some opinions be a threat. Even though he is the farthest from it. But if you are looking at ink all the time as a threat, you are quite possibly overlooking some more obvious "wacKadoo" with no tats. Looking for threatening behavior and strange or fast movements is what I would put up a little higher than body art.
I would rather sit before 12 than be carried by 6
"And if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one".---Jesus
to the remaining eleven disciples following the last supper.
May 29th, 2008 09:15 AM
Perhaps, but there's the rub. Without paying attention to those other, non-action indicators, someone who's targeting you ends up getting very close such that the behavior/movement is engaged only briefly before the attack hits you. And that's the whole point of maintaining awareness, trying to fill in where awaiting actions simply isn't going to cover everything.
Originally Posted by mrlee7878
Not until you're a known quantity, no. But that goes for anyone I'm considering leaving my kids with.
Originally Posted by firestarplus
The point isn't, as some have suggested, prejudgment. It's about the exact opposite: when will the guards come down. For me, it's simple. When do the guards come down? When earned. Can't know that from mere tats and piercings. Can't know merely because someone's "moving fast." The increased likelihood of knowing only comes over time, when the totality of indicators all come into focus.
It's why we deem it more likely to find a safer person via introductions rather than unannounced at a meat market (aka, a bar). It's why we tend to trust our understanding of long-standing neighbors over new ones. The point is, the judgement becomes real where the rubber meets the road, where we have solid footing to stand on. Until then, whatever factors we're grasping for to help with the assessment, it's all a guess.
The thing is, we're not speaking of winning the Christmas turkey. We're speaking of lives. In this life-and-death game of trying to stop the BG from attacking, awaiting the murderous downstroke for proof can, quite literally, kill you.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
May 29th, 2008 09:28 AM
Do you have a "13" on your elbow or neck? A grim reaper with three fingers up or down or a pitchfork? A crown on the back of either hand or across your chest or back? Swastikas? Most are a tad more subtle, these days but not always. What tats do you have, relative to your race? I would say you'd probably get a, "Nice ink," from me, but it does get some study before I comment.
Originally Posted by firestarplus
May 29th, 2008 10:20 AM
I am arrogant. If somehow any of my posts have made anybody think I am not cocky, I apologize.
Originally Posted by firestarplus
If you don't like the word, normal...how about professional. If you want to look like a dirt bag, that's fine with me...Just don't expect me to treat you the same as 'normal' people.
If I miss out on meeting one of the greatest guys on Earth because he looks like a thug or a vagrant, than I guess I'll never know what I missed out on. Doesn't bother me a bit.
May 29th, 2008 10:47 AM
May 29th, 2008 01:48 PM
Criminals are not stupid profilers
Ivan Ray Murphy, Jr. (Robbed and killed old lady AFTER SHE INVITED HIM INSIDE for ice-cream.. basher her head in with a bludgeon 6 times after he finished his tasty treat, I guess he did not look like a homeless bumb now, did he?
killed a taxi cab driver, and the founder of the Colorado Free University.
andrea yates (Need I say anything here?)
Aaron Lee Skeen (Killer) 2006
pled guilty and was convicted of one count of first degree murder, one count of especially aggravated kidnapping, three counts of aggravated rape, four counts of aggravated burglary, and three counts of forgery
Adolph Laudenberg (Serial Killer, suspected killing of 3 women)
Abdi Adan (Killer) 2006
Synopsis: Abdi Adan is wanted for the murder of his sister-in-law, Tigist Mohammed, that occurred at 4900 University Avenue on September 9, 1998. There is an outstanding felony arrest warrant charging Abdi Adan with murder.
Mohammed, along with her two sisters, were walking up Winona Avenue in San Diego when they were confronted by the suspect, Adan, who appeared to be very angry. Mohammed fled from Adan by running up University Avenue. Adan chased Mohammed out into oncoming traffic where she was struck by a car. Adan caught up to Mohammed and stabbed her multiple times in the torso and neck. Mohammed was taken to the hospital where she died a short time later. Adan was last seen running northbound on 50th Street.
Omar Maldonado (Killer)
Synopsis: On February 17, 2000, Omar Maldonado killed 17-year-old, Leah Tadeo, with a shotgun blast to the back of her head. The two were attending a party at 4361 Logan Avenue. The victim did not know Maldonado and did nothing to provoke the incident.
After the murder, Maldonado fled to Mexico. Investigators believe he is living with family members in the Tijuana area. Warrants for Maldonado’s arrest for murder are outstanding in both Mexico and the United States.
There are now cases where burglars and rapists are using ATTRACTIVE women accomplices to gain the trust of residences, so that the lady could gain entrance into the home, so as to allow the other criminals inside.... now, for all you profilers, I bet a pretty little lady would fly right under your radar screen, not knowing that she's planing to jack you with several of her "homies." That mistake could be your last. This happened to some people who lived 5 min away from my old Baltimore neighborhood... someone had their face beaten in while his woman was gang raped after they let 2 attractive women inside claiming they needed a phone.
Ask this victim who got JACKED when he took up 2 attractive young women from the club... skanks called over her "home boys" and opened to door for them, caught the home owner off guard and he was completely at the mercy of 7 thugs, one armed with a revolver.... they trashed his place. (Another video out there without the music, but can't find it)
LiveLeak.com - Home Invasion
CHECK 44-50sec into video to see the woman accomplice let her thug friends inside while the resident is totally off guard... he thinks he is gona get "some" and score... WRONG.
IMHO, I am more concerned with the "normal" looking criminal element, especially the type that use attractive women and BABIES... YES BABIES... in Jamaica, gunmen will have their own women jack you with her baby (to gain sympathy)... you won't even see it coming, by time you did your head's blown off. Criminals are not stupid... quite a few are crafty.
Last edited by CR2008; May 29th, 2008 at 01:56 PM.
May 29th, 2008 03:19 PM
Are some of you actually saying that I should be cautious even around people who look like me??
If we can't trust me, then whom can we trust?
I do agree that all criminals are not dumb. In fact some are brilliant in some ways, and if they put their energies to good uses could get rich honestly.
I conclude that it is a matter of awareness, and preparation.
May 29th, 2008 03:37 PM
I don't trust anybody, especially me........I know me!!!!!
“You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”
― Robert A. Heinlein,
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