Tattoos, Percings and Other Profiling Techniques - Page 3

Tattoos, Percings and Other Profiling Techniques

This is a discussion on Tattoos, Percings and Other Profiling Techniques within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Try flying with a Middle Eastern last name, what takes most 45 minutes takes me 1-1/2 hours without a pistol....

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  1. #31
    Senior Member Array rhinokrk's Avatar
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    Try flying with a Middle Eastern last name, what takes most 45 minutes takes me 1-1/2 hours without a pistol.
    Get the U.N. out of the U.S.
    Get the U.S. out of the U.N.


  2. #32
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    I have a shaved head. My whole back and one arm is covered in a huge japanese style tattoo.

    I am 5'10" and about 210-230 lbs. depending on how often i get to the gym. About a year ago when I had more time to work out, I had 19" arms and benched 315lbs.

    I have been putting 500-700 rounds a week down range and shoot IDPA and local club events.

    I would like to work out more, but it is difficult to find time between being a great dad, a loving husband, and a tenured college professor with a heavy research and teaching schedule.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by cl00bie View Post
    In another thread it was mentioned that a man who was arrested for firing his gun had tattoos. This elicited defensive responses from a number of other posters.

    I live in an area where an inordinate percentage of dirtbags have very obvious and elaborate tattoos and bizarre (to me) piercings. Other dirtbags of other racial groups wear baggy pants around their butt cracks showing off their boxers, they also generally have a very belligerent attitude.

    These kinds of people I will watch more closely for trouble than others. If I see a a few guys in business suits, I figure they might embezzle money from my retirement account, but they probably are not going to mug me. Guys who are tattooed, pierced, dressed like gang members might.

    I also understand that the big tattooed lug with the ponytail down his back may be the nicest guy in the world and maybe a minister in his local church, but that doesn't change the fact that I observe him and watch him more closely than others.

    Is profiling of this type a reasonable defensive posture, or is it simply bigotry on the part of the profiler.
    Bigotry, I don't think so but it is stereotyping without a doubt. I have long hair half way down my back, a beard and a mustache and ride a motorcycle. I've never even been arrested, let alone convicted of a crime. Have I been the victim of being judged because of my appearance? You betcha... and it sucks. I've been treated very poorly by doctors, police and security personel and others and all are unfounded accusations. I might not have graduated from college or even highschool but I did get my GED and took a few college classes and went on to work in the computer industry (Asst Network Admin, Level 2 Desktop Support and Sr. Field Technician) from being a truck driver for Roadway Express, where I got hurt on the job. I might look like a 'dirtbag biker' but I'm well versed in the English language and can hold my own in a conversation with the best of them. I'm proud of the fact that I didn't follow so many people I knew into a life of crime and drugs and I have a very high respect for not only law enforcement in general but the military as well. So why should I be judged by the ignorant? People should be judged by their actions, not their appearance. By doing so, you are promoting bigotry, even if it's to the people you are closest to: your wife and kids see how you react to other people and they know what you're thinking. They will copy your emotions towards other people and will further spread the distrust towards a specific group based on appearance.

    One example you might want to consider: Years ago in 1993 there was a shooting on the L.I.R.R. in Long Island NY. The guy who shot and killed 6 people and wounded 19 others, was on his way home (I think) from work. He did not 'look' like a punk or a dirtbag.

    Gunman Kills on L.I.R.R. Train; 19 Are Wounded

    Colin Ferguson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    It is to be observed that Right of Self-Defence, arises directly and immediately from the Care of our own Preservation, which Nature recommends to every one. . . , and that this right is so primary, that it cannot be denied on the basis that it is not "expressly set forth.

    --- Hugo Grotius

  4. #34
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    My father tells me stories of his days of growing up as a teen/young adult. With long hair or a beatles style hair-cut he was often stopped if he was just walking home from work or something by the police and questioned.

    They didn't really like that "hippie" hairstyle back then, but my father is one of the most respectable people I know.

    It comes and goes with the times...

    Someone earlier mentioned you should be paying attention to who is watching YOU. I agree with that statement. When I was younger I was out on the boardwalk at ocean city with my best friend. We were about 15 at the time. This was during the day. We noticed a clean-cut business looking guy who was kinda watching us a little too closely. We sat down at a bench, he sat across. We walked into a store, he looked around outside...

    Eventually we hoped a trollie as it was going by and lost him, but it sure was freaky/creepy. If say I was watching everyone else wondering about that scruffy looking bum guy over there, we might not have noticed the clean-cut business guy stalking us in time to do anything about it.

    You can't help but have your gut feelings, and stereotypes from your own experiences, but just don't let them get to your head and consume your awareness/thoughts.

    This may be easier for me, as I have grown up around such a variety of people here in Virginia that I have met bad guys of all types, and good guys of all types.

    Oh, and to add... I might fit a profile on any given day. I have a full beard, that often gets pretty scruffy. I grow my hair until I feel like getting it shaved. So sometimes I look like a scruffy guy... other times completely clean cut. Just depends on the month :P

  5. #35
    Member Array nativenyerintexas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Perhaps you are right, but I was more thinking of the big picture, and not so much the social aspects. I didnt mean to say that the clean cut person was always going to be harmless, I was saying that those people who give you the willy's do for a reason.
    I know all to well about this, I just spent a lot of time in an undercover capacity. I had long hair, scruffy beard, earrings and the works after spending years as a clean cut guy... it was amazing to me how I was treated differently, and it was even more evident when I cut my hair and cleaned up just a few days ago.
    So we deserve to be treated like crap because we have long hair, a beard and mustache and ride a motorcycle? If anyone should understand it should be you, because you've been on both sides. I guess I should hope you're not in my neck of the woods. If you want to be wary of anyone specific, you should be wary of everyone. But I guess not everyone can get to learn these valuable lessons from growing up in NYC like I did.

    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    OMG, yes. If you fail to note potentially meaningful clues, it could be the last thing you do.

    Claims of bigotry and howls of protest from the cheap seats? That's for those who can afford political correctness. They're not where I (and you) are standing, out there.

    It's why I think the howls over "racial profiling" are ludicrous. A person's height, weight, apparent ethnicity, gender, clothing, demeanor, speech, attentiveness on you/others and other identifiable characteristics are merely clues to the puzzle, when a defensive posture must be maintained. Useful ones, at that.
    There are a lot of ignorant people out there. Clues.... I can't believe I read that... or you even WROTE that. I guess racists and bigots are alive and well in this country. I thought we left that behind 50 years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Rod View Post
    I have tattoos and long hair---no piercings. No jail-house tats, mine are of high quality and high price. Done in my younger/military years. I've never been a city council member, I used to be a stamp collector, I get approved instantly when purchasing a firearm, I have the look of determination, I don't wear suits unless it's a wedding or a funeral, I basically dislike people until I know them, I love animals and I don't associate with riff-raff, I do shop at Wal-Mart, I help everyone I can, my credit may not be perfect, and everything I do I give at least 100%. I don't disrespect authority although I may often question it when given the opportunity. I think for myself and care for more than I should. In the words of a well-known country song-----"how do ya like me know?"
    Profile away and have fun with yourself. Never judge a book by it's cover.
    Agreed. It still annoyes me though when people do it to me.





    Quote Originally Posted by braindonor View Post
    Your choice how you look. My choice how I react. All other things being equal, your appearance could flip the scene from yellow to red in my mind. It would be an extreme situation, but what do you expect? That someone anti social (given the grooming) and aggressive (given the t-shirt) should get a pass? Try to look at it from someone else's point of view, instead of defending your costume.
    If it goes from yellow to red, it's your decision... and that decison would be wrong in the eyes of the law. You should have learned that when you took your CHL class... or does your state even require one? Here in Texas, that's part of the class and rightfully so. You need to look beyond the appearance. But I digress. You have your way of looking at it and we all have ours. I just hope an innocent victim doesn't get hurt because of your judgmental character.
    It is to be observed that Right of Self-Defence, arises directly and immediately from the Care of our own Preservation, which Nature recommends to every one. . . , and that this right is so primary, that it cannot be denied on the basis that it is not "expressly set forth.

    --- Hugo Grotius

  6. #36
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    nativenyerintexas, I'm thinking you may want to re-read the above posts you quoted. The complaint made on each of those quotes don't seem to match the tone or content of any of them. Reading all of the posts and comments in the thread, particularly by those you quoted, may change your mind.

    That being said, everyone is free to make their own choices about how they look and how someone responds to a certain "look" is most likely by their experiences. As such, everyone should rely on those signals that they get when encountering people. You should probably pay attention to those little voices sending. For the record, those of you that have posted pictures are not what catches my eye when I'm looking for threats. As someone else said, you guys look like some of neighbors....
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  7. #37
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    The fact is that most people/society will initially judge you by your appearance.
    Or even if they do not outright "judge" you - they will notice and pay extra attention to you if you do not fit into their notion of what is common, typical, usual or "normal" for that environment.
    It's human nature and it will never change.
    It may not be fair and you might not like it but, they will and always have since the dawn of Man.
    I am not saying that it's a good thing or a bad thing only that it's a reality.

    I'm absolutely certain that even in prehistoric times if everybody in the clan is wearing Lion skins and you are an "unknown" and wander into the cave wearing a Leopard skin...the Neanderthals are going to take notice and quickly try to determine "Friend or Foe" - that would only be logical for them to do that.

    That having been said...human beings of many cultures and races and origins have been adorning, altering, modifying and tattooing and decorating their bodies since the dawn of time.
    The earliest known tattoos date back to before recorded history.

    My personal opinion is that people should look the way they want to look if that is the way they want to look.

    Be aware of the fact that if your personal look strays too far away from the accepted "norm" it will affect things like your potential job opportunities.

    AKA if you look like a zombie Goth and wear white face makeup with your eye sockets blackened and streaks of "blood" drawn on your face with red lipstick - you are probably not going to get that nursing job in the local hospital....and if you have a skull & crossbones tattooed on your neck and you like to wear a grim reaper cloak and walk around with a chainsaw...you can probably forget about getting very many babysitting jobs.

    If that does not bother you then go for it but, don't expect people not to notice you.

    My only real point being that people will at least quietly judge you until they know you...and it does not matter if you like it or not.
    They will.



    Nope, Sorry ~ you are probably just not going to get that Dental Hygienist job no matter how qualified you might be.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  8. #38
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    I thought I would post a picture too.

    There is a big difference between awareness and fear.

    Some of the best traits and worst traits can come from fear.

    We all live with fear, without fear you cannot have courage. When you do something despite of your fear, this is where courage comes from. The greater your fear, the greater will have been the courage. But you don't really get to know it is courage until after it is done because you will feel the fear.

    If you are not afraid, then there is no courage.

    Fear can also breed hate and distrust. Most bullying, hate and racism can be traced to fear.

    The irrational fear of guns gives the anti-gunners some of their power, or else they would see the statistics with more rationality.

    I have been in many situations of violence, faced armed attack, stopped acts of crime and saved other people. I did not look for these situations, I just had he pleasure of growing up poor and living in major cities. New York City (in the eighties, when it was really dangerous) Baltimore, DC, and more.

    We grew up in the midst of drug violence and poverty. I am now a professor at a prominent university and my brother (who looks like my twin but is more much more muscular) is a LEO who is incredibly well respected for his expert knowledge with K9's and martial arts training.
    He now locks up more than a few of the people we played with as kids.

    statistically, most crime victims will face violence from someone of their own race, and most victims of murder will know their attacker.

    carrying a firearm is a giant responsibility, we need to be extra careful in our own thinking and how we deal with our fear.

    be aware, be safe. be responsible.

  9. #39
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    Good post by me540
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  10. #40
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    I pondered posting pics of myself, but as it is, I am too frequently identified by people I do not know at the weirdest times..."Hey, aren't you that guy who rides the *****, smoking the pipe?"

    "Yeah, except I sold that bike 2 years ago."

    "I thought so, it has been about that long since I saw you last going down so-and-so street."

    This while eating dinner at a restaurant on the opposite end of town.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  11. #41
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by me540 View Post
    There is a big difference between awareness and fear.
    Yup. Awareness <> fear / hatred / bigotry / prejudice.

    Weak as many of the inputs are, they can be subtle (or not so subtle) clues to the intent and upcoming actions of the person in question. It's hardly foolproof, but it can be dangerous to ignore clues to someone's mental "breeding" as irrelevant.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  12. #42
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    Back in the 60's the motto was "Do your own thing". Millions of hippies demonstrated their own thing by all dressing alike and following Timothy Leery and other "Leaders" not realizing that doing your own thing doesn't mean following someone but thinking for yourself. Do your create and extablish fashion or follow it?

    When I see someone covered in tattoos I can't help but think are they actually a leader or follower. There is no originality in being tattooed or having your body pierced, just that you are following someone other that the standard. If I were interviewing someone for a job in a leadershipor creative role and they were tattooed I would think twice about their qualifications. However if it was an assembly line jod then tattoos would be fine.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by nativenyerintexas View Post
    So we deserve to be treated like crap because we have long hair, a beard and mustache and ride a motorcycle?
    Where did I say that? In fact, I think I said quite the opposite, and to trust instincts more than stereotypes.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  14. #44
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nativenyerintexas View Post
    So we deserve to be treated like crap because we have long hair, a beard and mustache and ride a motorcycle?
    Nope. And that wasn't what I said, certainly. Didn't read that from Sixto's comments, either. Deserving has nothing to do with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by nativenyerintexas View Post
    If you want to be wary of anyone specific, you should be wary of everyone. But I guess not everyone can get to learn these valuable lessons from growing up in NYC like I did.
    Being attentive to everyone is one of those lessons that living in NYC or elsewhere has taught many. Me, included.

    Quote Originally Posted by nativenyerintexas View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    OMG, yes. If you fail to note potentially meaningful clues, it could be the last thing you do.

    Claims of bigotry and howls of protest from the cheap seats? That's for those who can afford political correctness. They're not where I (and you) are standing, out there.

    It's why I think the howls over "racial profiling" are ludicrous. A person's height, weight, apparent ethnicity, gender, clothing, demeanor, speech, attentiveness on you/others and other identifiable characteristics are merely clues to the puzzle, when a defensive posture must be maintained. Useful ones, at that.
    There are a lot of ignorant people out there. Clues.... I can't believe I read that... or you even WROTE that. I guess racists and bigots are alive and well in this country. I thought we left that behind 50 years ago.
    Easy there, bubba. Am not racist, bigoted or prejudiced, and IMO those comments I made don't indicate that. Opinions vary. And some folks can be unclear, despite all attempts to the contrary. Apparently, I've just done that.

    My point: Consider what you know about junkyard dogs, dogs trained to attack, mistreated animals, and "normal" house pets of all sorts. On a given day, one dog comes at you, and that dog's about 3ft at the shoulder, ~140 lbs, is snarling, doesn't appear to have a strong desire to attack, and has a very clean look to its fur. A different dog on a different day approaches you, shorter than knee-high, ~20 lbs, is snarling, has "that look" to its eyes and demeanor, and has a ratty look to its fur. What clues help one correctly read the situation? All of them, potentially, and even then it might not be enough.

    To my way of thinking, of these two dogs I should be more wary of the second, smaller one, given "the look" of its eyes, demeanor, movement, fur, despite the outward greater risk presented by the larger, heavier dog. Still, them's just talking points. Everything is situation dependent, and minor clues might change the whole nature of the "read."

    With people, it's even worse, given all the choices folks can make as to demeanor, mode of dress, whether they poke holes in themselves or art-up their bodies, what condition of vehicle or possessions, etc. Weak guides, but it's what you've got when you don't know someone from Adam. There's no way around that. Doesn't mean it warrants different treatment. But it does suggest that keeping the radar up a bit longer wouldn't be unreasonable.

    Be clear on what I just said. Keeping one's attentiveness and "guard" up is sensible. That isn't to say any of this justifies different actual treatment merely because the hair's long, or whatever.

    The point was simply that flatly ignoring sensory cues is what gets folks in trouble.

    Our eyes and ears bring us many inputs to help correctly read a situation, maintain our circumspection, sense danger. The mere fact someone's walking toward me in a huff is reason enough to be wary. Add to that a person's size, then I might well be a bit more cognizant of the risk (ie, if he were 6'2" and a muscular ~240 lbs). Add to that apparent signs of a harder or riskier life (ie, "meth" teeth, "crazy" eyes, evidence of an alternative lifestyle that has more risks than I think is prudent), then at some point these characteristics combine to form a better interpretation of what's going down. It won't always be right, no. But ignoring such things can short out our built-in radar ... and that's a bad thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Where did I say that? In fact, I think I said quite the opposite, and to trust instincts more than stereotypes.
    Very important distinction. Of course, being a cop on the street, Sixto has far more of that instinct than many (most?) folks do. Demeanor, attitude, speed of movement, nature of movement, speech, how tense/relaxed someone appears, and perhaps less importantly the other visually-identifiable characteristics someone has ... these help engage the instinct synapses. It's not bigotry or racism, when simply taken as a whole. It's how we're wired, physiologically.

    Still unconvinced? Try a simple task, next time you're out people watching at the town square. Pick out three different people who appear to be watching others. Of those three, try to pick out the one that's doing so furtively, with mal-intent, or merely with a degree of evaluation that doesn't fit the situation. If you do this little exercise a dozen times, I think you'll start to see a pattern. Fairly often, these other visually-identifiable clues are also present with some of the folks who engage in that level of attentiveness. Wouldn't be surprising if many were "interviewing" others as potential marks. Who's to say. The point is simple, though: we ignore some clues at our own risk. Irrespective of whatever judgment one may make from what has been seen, these things are merely inputs to be considered. No more, no less.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  15. #45
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    Well stated CCW9mm...

    I believe attitude is everything...

    Rick

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