Tattoos, Percings and Other Profiling Techniques

This is a discussion on Tattoos, Percings and Other Profiling Techniques within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by nativenyerintexas Understood, but being CHL, CCW, CPL, whatever your state calls them, we are held at a higher standard because we should ...

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Thread: Tattoos, Percings and Other Profiling Techniques

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by nativenyerintexas View Post
    Understood, but being CHL, CCW, CPL, whatever your state calls them, we are held at a higher standard because we should know better from our training class. We should be able to put our prejudices aside and understand what the 'real' threat is and know it is not the guy wearing the punk rock costume just because he's wearing it or the homeless guy that hasn't showered in two weeks or even the inner city black kid who has his pants around his butt cheeks because all his friends think it looks cool. I understand people have their likes and dislikes as to what is acceptable appearences but to judge those looks as being a threat is not. Sorry, no way no how is anyone going to sell me on it. Because if you think about it, our appearance is just another form of freedom of expression for most of us, nothing more. By trying to surpress the way we look, or judging us on our looks thinking we will cause havoc more frequently than a person in a business suit is the same as the gun-grabbers thinking all CHL holders will open fire in a crowded movie theater. And we all know how stupid that is, right?
    So, when 'Mr. Blue Lips with the white face and freaky hair', shows up to date your daughter, you just say, "Well, have a nice night, honey...don't be too late."?
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  3. #62
    Member Array nativenyerintexas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Nope. And that wasn't what I said, certainly. Didn't read that from Sixto's comments, either. Deserving has nothing to do with it.
    I'm not going to try to justify all my comments because it's not what I'm about and it'll take just too much time. I will comment on what you wrote though. In your post you said "A person's height, weight, apparent ethnicity, gender, clothing, demeanor, speech, attentiveness on you/others and other identifiable characteristics are merely clues to the puzzle, when a defensive posture must be maintained. Useful ones, at that." The fact that they are even clues suggests a stereotype. A person's appearance should have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that someone's a threat or not. His or her actions would be the key. You explained it yourself with the dog scenario, and I agree wholeheartedly with that but you didn't say that originally. Read what you said: "A person's height, weight, apparent ethnicity, gender, clothing,... etc". To identify a suspect, yes you have to be able to identify him or her but for the red flag in your brain to go up just because of a person's appearance... that's not right.
    It is to be observed that Right of Self-Defence, arises directly and immediately from the Care of our own Preservation, which Nature recommends to every one. . . , and that this right is so primary, that it cannot be denied on the basis that it is not "expressly set forth.

    --- Hugo Grotius

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Rod View Post
    Everyone have a great Memorial Day! So we have three new faces to put along with usernames now----aint that something? How many of the rest of you wouldn't dare post a pic of yourself here? Consider yourself challenged then and post up--everyone in this thread. I just got back online ten minutes ago. Woke up this morning without power from some storms. We're headed out to the gun club picnic at the range. I hope to see alot more of you when I get home this afternoon.
    Have a good day at the range... I was thinking of doing the same in some sort of wierd support of our military, to kill some paper.

    I'm also a Patriot Guard Rider but there's nothing going on in my neck of the woods as far as I can tell.
    It is to be observed that Right of Self-Defence, arises directly and immediately from the Care of our own Preservation, which Nature recommends to every one. . . , and that this right is so primary, that it cannot be denied on the basis that it is not "expressly set forth.

    --- Hugo Grotius

  5. #64
    Member Array hinkleid's Avatar
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    Interesting post. In all practicality nowadays you have to watch for everyone as there are no BG signs, might have tats might not.

    As far as profiling, that is just the way life is. It may be bad, but is reality. We all choose our appearance, and therefore ultimately choose the way we are treated socially from others that do not know us. Some it bothers badly, others could care less what others think.

    This is all based upon principles in Social Psychology and perception. People generally have this perception of a BG as one that embodies everything they perceive as bad. (tats, piercings, etc.). In grad school I have a friend that was working toward a PhD in Social Psych. Did many experiments, and even simple dress affects others behavior towards us. Just go into an upscale store in holey jeans and a t-shirt and watch how closely you are watched. The next day return in a suit and they pay you little mind.

    I myself dress professionally and am clean cut because of my position as a mental health therapist. Even if that were not the case, I would dress the same because I like positive vibes coming my way!

  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryM View Post
    I have not waded through all the pages of this thread. However, it is only realistic to realize that those whose appearance or actions depart from the norm will be "looked at differently."
    Watching programs on prisons I see that all of the inmates are heavily tattooed. I realize that all who have tatoos are not thugs, and know some who are very nice people. But when I see one who has extensive tattoos I do watch him more closely.

    I am one of the older folks here, and I admit I do not like tattoos (or earrings in a male) or piercings. I have no friends who are such, and do not associate on a personal basis with such. If I were in business I would not hire those folks.

    So each has the freedom to do as he pleases about it, but we who do not like those things, or associate them with people who do drugs and violence, will see you as one who is not desirable to be friends with. One has the freedom to tattoo and pierce, and others have the freedom to choose other friends.

    This is not intended to offend you, but the question comes up, and this is my position.

    Regards,
    Jerry
    I agree with you to a point. We're not talking about making friends though. We're talking about who's the threat. I don't have piercings, never wanted them, even when they were cool in the 80's. I never even wanted a tatoo until recently... to honor our fallen heros and those that perished in the terrorist attacks in 2001 but I respect those hat have them for what they are. I don't judge someone because they have tats. I judge people on their interactions with others around them and from that I decide whether I want to allow them to become friends. Columbine should have sent up red flags long before the incident (for lack of a better term) because of their actions, not because they wore over coats and black clothes. A rebelous teenager is one thing, but these two kids clearly were anti-social. But, as they say, hind-sight is 20/20. We can only learn from our mistakes and hopefully we do.

    Quote Originally Posted by cl00bie View Post
    Ok, here's a profiling question. Remember, there's no wrong answer.

    Which dog would you pay more attention to defensively?

    This one?

    Attachment 8758

    Or this one?

    Attachment 8759

    (My answer is below the fold)

    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .

    For me, it's the poodle. Every doberman I've ever met in my life has been a big friendly baby. Every poodle I've met has been a vicious, nasty monster.

    Guess it all depends on your life experiences.
    I huessed right.... he he. And I've never owned a dog.
    It is to be observed that Right of Self-Defence, arises directly and immediately from the Care of our own Preservation, which Nature recommends to every one. . . , and that this right is so primary, that it cannot be denied on the basis that it is not "expressly set forth.

    --- Hugo Grotius

  7. #66
    Senior Member Array KenInColo's Avatar
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    In 1986 I took a trip to Munich. On the trip back, at the Munich flughafen (airport), people in the check-in line were pulled out of the line by armed, uniformed, German police officers and escorted to a glass cubicles.

    There were about a half dozen of these cubicles and all contained two armed German police officers and one young male with very dark hair, very heavy eyebrows, dark complexion and a very thick mustache.

    I didn't see one 'Swedish lookin' grandma in those cubicles.

    When we went out to get on the plane, we didn't use the jetway. We all went out to the plane, in single file, on the tarmac. There we identified our luggage, which was then loaded into the luggage bay. We had to immediately board the plane and no one was allowed off.

    Those Germans were profiling back then and I was glad they did.
    Last edited by KenInColo; May 26th, 2008 at 02:09 PM. Reason: spelling
    An armed populace are called citizens.
    An unarmed populace are called subjects.

  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    So, when 'Mr. Blue Lips with the white face and freaky hair', shows up to date your daughter, you just say, "Well, have a nice night, honey...don't be too late."?
    That's not what I said. We're talking threats here, not who's dating my daughter, if I had one. There's a huge difference. I've made conscious decisions to allow a certain type of person in my inner circle of friends. And to be frank, it really has nothing to do with looks but more with a set of morals and interactions. I have black friend, PR friends, biker friends and what some try to consider 'normal' friends. It has nothing to do with their appearance. I wouldn't fault any father, including my brother (who has two dauthers, one of which is 16), to not allow his daughter to date such a guy but I do have a problem with someone singling that person out of a crowd and thinking he will be the one to put out a Glock and try to kill 25 people.
    It is to be observed that Right of Self-Defence, arises directly and immediately from the Care of our own Preservation, which Nature recommends to every one. . . , and that this right is so primary, that it cannot be denied on the basis that it is not "expressly set forth.

    --- Hugo Grotius

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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    So, when 'Mr. Blue Lips with the white face and freaky hair', shows up to date your daughter, you just say, "Well, have a nice night, honey...don't be too late."?
    How about Ted Bundy? Well dressed too.

    OJ is quite a handsome man, and well dressed too!

    This is going to extremes.

    I have had two well dressed college looking (frat boy types) attack me from behind and try to mug me and a friend.

    One rapist I stopped was very nicely dressed and well groomed, he had nicer clothes than me on at the time.

    Another time I came up on a large black man in sweats and a baseball cap holding a woman against a car, she was screaming "RAPE!" (I chose to describe him because I know that he fits some of the common stereotypes of a "bad guy")
    I did not carry at the time (Maryland!) I saw an opportunity and grabbed his gun, but did not point it at him, he was screaming that he was a police officer. I had someone call 911. I held the pistol at my side, finger off the trigger. I told him that the police were coming, if he was a criminal he could release the girl and run. If he was a cop he could hold the her until back up arrived. If he came at me, I would shoot him. (I had just moved to Baltimore and did not know what the ID looked like, plus this guy was huge and I did not want to get close to him again. The girl looked in distress but was being held by her arms against the car ) Well he held her, 5 squad cars showed up. Turns out he was a cop. He thanked me for the way I handled the situation and said no hard feelings.

    Behavior, expression, situational awareness are much better indicators than civilian profiling. Many criminals know how to blend in and choose their prey. Not all criminals are stupid and lacking in martial skills. It is their job.
    Last edited by me540; May 26th, 2008 at 02:48 PM. Reason: obvious spelling error

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    Quote Originally Posted by nativenyerintexas View Post
    ...but I do have a problem with someone singling that person out of a crowd and thinking he will be the one to put out a Glock and try to kill 25 people.
    I was profiling a guy who I thought might try and mug me. A lunatic shooter who is out to kill bunches of people fits an entirely different profile. Usually whitebread, clean cut middle to upper class spoiled brat.
    -Tony

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    Wow, all you guys look a LOT like people I know, except that punk rocker. I have no idea what he looks like under all that stuff.

    Me, I play it straight. I just don't think I'd look good with a ponytail, not allowed a beard by my employer, and my Mom thinks my current hairstyle is bad enough! Wait, there was that one time I got a little shaggy...

    Haven't found a tattoo yet that I am willing to go permanent with, but I'm still looking...
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  12. #71
    Member Array Danger Mouse's Avatar
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    well if tattoos and piercings are a sign of being a trouble maker, then I am in real trouble. With all these tattoos I must be on the FBI most wanted list
    Not all tattooed and pierced people are bad. I am a distinguished member of society here and have several tattoos and piercings. Thats what tees me off is when people see what they want to see, and not look deep to see whats really inside. It was documented that a lot of your store managers, architects, bank managers, CPA's and more are actually members of motorcycle gangs. How does that change your opinion of them now? If your opinion changed, then take a good look at yourself.
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  13. #72
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    As of post #73...
    I think some folks here need a cold soda and a nap...slow down, cool off, and enjoy life...this SHOULD be an exchange of words and wit...I believe most of us are on the same side, regardless of how ANY of us look...
    If I were judged by the looks of this 6th decade old weather-beaten excuse for a face I'd be getting the evil-eye much more often...than I already do.

    Enjoy fella's...OMO

    Stay armed...watch those 'book covers'...stay safe!
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  14. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danger Mouse View Post
    . It was documented that a lot of your store managers, architects, bank managers, CPA's and more are actually members of motorcycle gangs. How does that change your opinion of them now? If your opinion changed, then take a good look at yourself.
    Gangs or clubs??? And documentation please...

    Thanks
    Rick

  15. #74
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    I think you should profile everyone. No, I'm not kidding, but I think that a situational awareness of everyone around you can give you a better feeling of security than just dwelling on one type of person.

    I agree with SIXTO, (who I assume has had training, since he's a LEO), when he says "I guess its more about body language and how one carries themselves."
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch; Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
    -- Benjamin Franklin

  16. #75
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    While it is true that some "nicely dressed and good looking" people commit crimes and rapes (Ted Bundy) it remains that the thugs in gangs and in prison have tattoos. Accordingly, I do not think it unreasonable to "look at" people with tattoos and piercings somewhat differently than the average folks who do not have such.

    If one wants to do things or dress outside the norm, then they must expect to be viewed in a different light. If I were broken down beside the road I would much rather trust a person who was dressed nicely than one with a leather tank top, long hair, piercings, and a long scraggly beard. If I have to play the odds that is the way I see it.

    I have to admit that I am puzzled as to why tattoos have become the rage???

    Regards,
    Jerry

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