May 27th, 2008 07:59 AM
This is a long thread and I just stumbled on this site. This sparked my membership and first post. I use to work undercover narcotics and when I dressed the part, I could see how I was treated by the general public. People tended to walked around me, stare at me, pull their children away from me. My family looked at me differrently, my kids didn't recognize me at times. I had a long beard, tats on my arms were always showing. One thing is for sure, when I dressed like this, I was never a vicitm, nobody ever wanted to have a confrontation with me. The real me is that I have three kids, a great wife, nice home, I'm religious, I live in the country, I love life. Now we wouldn't know any of this just by looking at me when I worked in Narco. I also use the appearence of people when working to help me cue into the criminal activity. But as other posters have said, that is only one helpful tool, it is the totality of many factors that turns your hunch into probability.
May 27th, 2008 09:38 AM
What you are describing is not profiling, it's fear of the unknown/unexperienced. Experience isn't difficult or expensive: do ride-alongs with your community EMS/LE; take part in a prison ministry; work a local soup kitchen/homeless shelter. Personalities and behaviors tend to congregate in professions, meeting them in a controlled environment would give you a reasonable experience with reasonable security.
Originally Posted by morintp
May 27th, 2008 09:47 AM
me540 - I worked as an engineer for 25 years and worked with many very smart engineers. Some I considered creative and some just regurgitated what they had been told. Something is your post about creativity bother me:
I don not consider a resurgense of any kind of work to be creative. As I said about the engineers there were some that we could depend on to do a wonderful job of design when it was a standard project but if it was something never done before then we had to depend on some of the others that could come up with new ideas and ways to do things. These new ideas did not always sit well with certain people who wanted to continue with the status quo. Luckily when I first joined that company we had a President that appreciated new ideas and we were always ahead of the curve and named the company of the year in our field. It was great working for that company then. When he died and the new President took over we soon found that we could even go to the restroom without getting a consulting firm to bless it. Innovation was gone and soon about 5,000 of the 12,000 employees. It was not a pleasant place to work for anyone other than the person who can regurgitate facts day after day.
There is a resurgence of naturalistic painting, "neo-classicism" being one of the names given to this kind of work.
Creativity and leadership comes in many forms. If I interview 6 people for a job and 4 of the six are covered with all the same tattoos, piercing and hair style but one has totally different tattoos etc. and the other doesn't have any. Which one(s) do you think are creative and which ones fust follow the latest trend? You may be wrong but it is a start.
May 27th, 2008 09:55 AM
For any that believe it's off-base to engage in such attentiveness, check the posts by Sixto in the other discussion thread on "profiling" of bad neighborhoods, specifically in regards to the look of something as indicators of its possible riskiness. Ignoring such visual cues can get cops killed, when patrolling such areas. Sensing such things is what the neighbors in such hoods do for survival. And it's that skill of taking note of visual cues we're speaking of, in this thread, that can be very useful. It can quite literally be a life-or-death skill, if moving through such places unscathed is your goal.
Originally Posted by dsump
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
May 27th, 2008 09:58 AM
May 27th, 2008 10:53 AM
I think its perfectly natural to make some judgements, based on appearance. But be aware that appearances can often be deceiving. Look at some old pictures of Jeffery Dahmer and Ted Bundy, if you don't believe me. Neither one of those guys would "appear" to be "bad guys", but both certainly were. I usually don't worry about the loud obnoxious types. Its the ones that never say a word that you have to worry about. I heard somewhere that the eyes are the window to the soul. I think thats a bad guys most telling feature.
May 27th, 2008 11:45 AM
Originally Posted by FN1910
In my earlier post I was only presenting an friendly exception to your ideas.
I would be careful of stereotyping and prejudice, I can say that in this case I would think you are in the wrong:
In hiring practices this is a great basis for a discrimination lawsuit. You are not only talking about your own personal prejudice, but you are talking about making a hiring decision largely based on visual appearance where appearance does not affect job performance.
"If I were interviewing someone for a job in a leadershipor creative role and they were tattooed I would think twice about their qualifications. However if it was an assembly line jod then tattoos would be fine."
I would not "think" someone was creative or not creative based on your criteria here. There is not enough information to make a decision. Your belief that this is a valid senario to justify your prejudice as a well grounded decision really reinforces the fact that you are being close-minded. Try your criteria this way:
If I interview 6 people for a job and 4 of the six are covered with all the same tattoos, piercing and hair style but one has totally different tattoos etc. and the other doesn't have any. Which one(s) do you think are creative and which ones fust follow the latest trend? You may be wrong but it is a start.
"If I interview 6 people for a job and 4 of the six are" :
a. women, two are men..
b. wearing blue ties, one is wearing a red tie...
c. a certain race
Ok, except your opinion here is of little consequence. From your statement I can tell you have no idea what you are talking about when you are refer to a resurgence in the Art World.
"I do not consider a resurgence of any kind of work to be creative."
In the world of Art only the actual artwork being considered matters to an artist when we are talking about the work being "good or not". Art History tends to use classification to identify movements to have a point of reference for the sake of historical reference. Artist, the creators of art, tend to look at individual works and build on past knowledge through a mix of deference and rebellion. This is also how new ideas come about in science and engineering. It is about solving a problem. The criteria for the problem in art is usually a want of expression. There has been a "recent argument" in the Art World of modes of expression that resulted in what is loosely called neo-classic work. It began around the 17th century with the establishment of the "Académie Française". Artist moved away from representational work, (abstract expressionism and "modern art" 1950's).
It is not that people make representational artwork again that is important, it is just a point of reference to simply answer a question.
I might have said that I am an Industrial Designer who designs cars. Then
I say there is a resurgence in the "Muscle Car Movement". (Here is where you would come in and say that you would not consider this creative.) But the new "muscle cars" of today can be innovative while reflecting the past love of power and speed. This is how work progresses. New use of older technology ie. forced induction advances, variable camshafts, to full electric engines with instant on torque.
Here are two objectives I have when I work with students:
To develop the students’ individuality, creative problem solving skills, and their ability to express themselves.
To develop a rich knowledge of the historical context out of which one is working and an understanding of the contemporary environment of which one is a part.
I wrote about the "resurgence" as a simple way to give a point of reference for the father of the young woman interested in pursuing a career in Art.
Actually, in talking about individual creativity, it is not the movement of art nor the materials used, but the actual work that matters.
Here is another analogy for you:
Someone says I don't get why anyone would paint pictures on a ceiling.
The artist answers that he is interested in it and that people used to paint on cave ceilings but recently there has also been a resurgence of this.
You say that any resurgence is not creative. So Michelangelo, the Artist talking about the cave paintings says, "So you are not interested in seeing my ceiling at the Sistine Chapel?"
(by the way I am not likening myself to Michelangelo)
I am sorry I did not remain gracious and generous in my response to your post this time. I can see you had a unpleasant experience in your life related to this topic: [quote]"It was great working for that company then. When he died and the new President took over we soon found that we could even go to the restroom without getting a consulting firm to bless it. Innovation was gone and soon about 5,000 of the 12,000 employees. It was not a pleasant place to work for anyone other than the person who can regurgitate facts day after day."[quote]
You say something about my post bothers you, but maybe you are transferring your negative experience into my words. I am sorry for your experience.
I do think that you provide evidence in these posts that you are quick to judge. You said that you worked with some smart engineers. I work and have worked with some of the best and most respected individuals, institutions and companies in my field.
Think what you want.
Last edited by me540; May 27th, 2008 at 01:01 PM.
Reason: mellowing out
May 27th, 2008 11:48 AM
Huh...I'm wondering if I should get over my paranoia for a bit and put a picture of me up here for profiling purposes. Would be interesting.
May 27th, 2008 12:27 PM
Thought I'd throw in my two cents.
When I'm not going to school at night I work a full time maintenance position at a hotel. The hotel is situated in the down town area of a city with a population of about 40 thousand.
About a month ago, we had a group of black folks check into three different rooms. They all had the "thug" attire on. Big, baggy clothes, chains, poorly drawn tattooes, etc. They were also all local. Because of their attire and the fact that they were staying in a hotel in the same town they lived in, I was a little more alert while they were there. Before long after they checked in, we noticed a lot of seedy looking traffic coming in, and people using entrances that were not only out of the way, but also in low traffic areas of the hotel. One time we even had a guy come in dressed like a pimp. Chains, zoot suit, and even a cain. Not too common in that city. We ended up calling the police, and when they ran their IDs, we found out two were convicted drug dealers, and another was using an ID of someone already in prison. The cops started watching them, and I believe two of them were arrested. Apparently they had ties to crack dealers in Chicago.
Now, this type of profiling may make me sound racist. And although I grew up in a family that was extremely racist, I've done my best to be objective in my views of other people.
I myself am not the cleanest cut person. I have a few visible tatooes, several other hidden ones, and facial hair. I smoke, and like to drink every now and then, and was certainly not on the right side of the law all the time when I was younger. Nowadays however I live a law abiding life, am maintaining a 4.0 GPA at the technical college I attend, and I'm working to better myself in several ways. I always say please and thankyou in public, I hold the door for folks, and always try to respect people who deserve it. I'm sure people profile me a certain way, but it really doesn't bother me. Cops have paid me more attention than they may some other people, but that doesn't bother me either. As long as I'm not doing something I shouldn't, what'll it matter?
Better to die quick, fighting on your feet;
Than to live forever, begging on your knees.
May 27th, 2008 01:33 PM
There is nothing wrong with profiling or discrimination. It just depends upon how it is applied.
May 27th, 2008 01:56 PM
Well, you may be right and during bikeweek in Daytona Beach you might see me having a beer with one.
BUT, I can tell you when I worked for the Fed’s all the BG’s I was investigating wore $1000 suits, stayed in lavishness penthouse suites. Had limos and or drove luxury cars, and Rolex watches.
Their hair and nails where always trimmed, and you might say that if you looked up the word “clean cut” in the dictionary, you’d see a picture of them there.
However, these THUGS would swindle a little old lady out of her life savings, and laugh about it, on the way to the bank.
May 27th, 2008 02:08 PM
EVERYBODY practices prejudice...we ALL 'pre-judge' based upon our own past experiences.
Originally Posted by JerryM
Bigotry is the no-no.
May 27th, 2008 02:35 PM
But I probably don't have to worry about them mugging me. A contract that I am signing with them certainly bears more scrutiny, but I'm generally not worried about them pulling a knife/gun and asking for my wallet.
Originally Posted by tns0038
Here, since everybody has been tip-toeing about it, I'll go ahead and say it. I prejudge every single person I meet.
As far as the poster that said not hiring somebody because of tattoos or appearance could lead to a lawsuit, I disagree. Appearance/tattoos are not a protected trait. If I say I won't hire you because of gender, race, age, disability, religion, etc, than I could be sued for discrimination. That's not what I am going to say, and it's not what I judge by. I don't have to say anything. "We have your resume on file and we will get back to you if you are the best fit. Thanks for applying."
I agree with Ridgeline. If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and talks like a duck; chances are, it's a duck.
If you are offended that people mis-judge you as a thug, than don't try your best to look like a thug.
For Janq, who called it a long shot...20/200 times...well, if my 180 times of being wrong leads me to avoid 20 instances of trouble, I consider it well worth it.
May 27th, 2008 02:41 PM
Hey didn't you model for Snuggles fabric softner?
Originally Posted by Ram Rod
Blessed be the Lord my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight.
Senior Instructor for Tactical and Defensive of Texas
May 27th, 2008 03:03 PM
I sometimes think of how strange one thinks when he does not want to conform to the norm of society, but expects society to accept him as if he did.
I would not deal with a bank where the tellers were pierced, and the men wore long hair, and the workers wore sweats. I expect and require more professionalism from folks I deal with.
I disagree that you cannot judge a book by its cover. I find that easy.
I can at least make a determination that if one's appearance indicates rebellion then even if he is the exception, I don't intend to find out. I do not necessarily think he might a thug, but he is someone that I would not have a personal association with.
That is why some businesses and organizations, and churches do not approve or permit such things done by employees.
Appearance is not unimportant.
Some years ago, at the gym, I asked a couple of guys that I had seen and talked to, why they wore earrings and piercings? Both replied that it was rebellion against the norms of society. That is what I suspected.
So why would one with that attitude think that he would not be profiled in the various ways?
While it is true that some thugs wear $1000 suits, they are not the ones on the street who do the muggings. I do not want to have anything to do with either group.
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