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Tattoos, Percings and Other Profiling Techniques

17K views 158 replies 71 participants last post by  Captain Crunch 
#1 ·
In another thread it was mentioned that a man who was arrested for firing his gun had tattoos. This elicited defensive responses from a number of other posters.

I live in an area where an inordinate percentage of dirtbags have very obvious and elaborate tattoos and bizarre (to me) piercings. Other dirtbags of other racial groups wear baggy pants around their butt cracks showing off their boxers, they also generally have a very belligerent attitude.

These kinds of people I will watch more closely for trouble than others. If I see a a few guys in business suits, I figure they might embezzle money from my retirement account, but they probably are not going to mug me. Guys who are tattooed, pierced, dressed like gang members might.

I also understand that the big tattooed lug with the ponytail down his back may be the nicest guy in the world and maybe a minister in his local church, but that doesn't change the fact that I observe him and watch him more closely than others.

Is profiling of this type a reasonable defensive posture, or is it simply bigotry on the part of the profiler.
 
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#2 ·
Profiling is fine, its nothing more than the accumulation of life experiences and drawing logical conclusions based on that... Those who dress, decorate themselves or act in certain ways deserve the attention they are asking for.

You might be wrong, but you will be alive.
 
#3 ·
My experience has taught me that many 'clean cut' people are actually trying to hide who they really are.If I profile anything,it is behaviour and body language.Look at sex offenders mugshots.Many are average looking.Murderers?Many are average looking.I remember many years ago,an old guy waiting in my office for a mutual friend.The old guy was dirty and a real grouch.He actually fell asleep while waiting.I found out later he was worth over 60 million.Assumption based only on appearance can be bad.
 
#27 ·
...Assumption based only on appearance can be bad.
As well as limited and limiting.

Some folks know only what they know and have been around, and have little to work on otherwise when out of their own zone or element.
Ones base of experience might work for one 'type' of person in a given area but may and likely will nto elsewhere.
For example I see now days people everywhere with tattoos including today a guy at my local Barnes & Noble with 'sleeves' (both arms covered in tats up to the wrist) and the gal working the childrens area had three including the ankle, neck, and one just above her tailbone. All were highly visible. It used to be that only criminals and military and 'freaks' had tats. Now days everyone and their grandma has one or five. As well placement no longer means much such as on the neck, face, chest/breast, or hands/fingers. These used to be strictly for criminals and associated persons. Not any more.

Same goes for many other profiling methods from clothing to address of residence to profession to you name it and of course ethnicity too.
I've found that with assessment things matter most as based on a single persons actions as relative to a given situational atmosphere. Something happened today in fact that I plan to post about which reinforces this, and the guy he had no tats.

Profiling works IMHO because people apply it and don't keep track of how many times they were wrong, against the one time they were right. 20 or 200 false positives are worth less than one Ah hah...see I told ya! moment.
Apply those same odds to gambling or say ones own health care conditioning and then the math becomes crystal clear as being long odds at best.

I'm 37, have no tats of any sort, have never been in the system (which in itself was an amazing feat and against the odds), have "impeccable" credit per statement to me by my long time banker last week toward my looking into a high six figure personal line of credit, I love to wear suits and will at any given even remote chance to do so, and on any given day I can be dressed down or up as applicable to my expected surroundings be it town, country, city, or wherever.
Also when to my own immediate benefit it is prudent to do so I'll also modify and 'street' my speech pattern and intonation as well. As much is just another form of camouflage to which I and many others purposefully play into and against profiling for means of personal gain and benefit as well as survival.

IMHO profiling is a shell game for suckers.

- Janq
 
#4 ·
Profiling might work sometimes but not even close to all the time. If you spend your time concentrating on that guy with the ponytail and tatoos, you could very well get killed by the clean cut guy wearing a sweater.

When I was 17 I went to a Motley Crue concert in Montreal with my friends and sisters. We went in two cars. Not meaning to do it like the way we did, one car had me, my cousin and two friends. We all had long hair and earrings and were wearing t-shirts and ripped jeans. We were on our way to a heavy metal concert and would fit right in. BTW, now I have a crew cut and haven't worn an earring in about 18 years, but that's besides the point. The other car had my two sisters and three friends. They all had short hair (except my sisters) and were all wearing dockers and sweaters.

When we got to the border, they waved my sister's car through and let them go without any problems. Our car got stopped and they brought us inside. They checked our records, emptied our pockets, patted us down, searched the car thoroughly, and accused us of having drugs which we didn't. We spent over an hour there, and the entire time the guards were getting more and more harrassing as they were getting disappointed at not finding anything. Eventually they let us go.

After we got through and met up with my sister's car that was waiting at the store down the street one of my friends in the "clean cut" car started laughing at us. Apparently he had brought some pot across the border and the guard never even thought to search the car of such a "respectable" group of kids.

This is where I have to differ with Sixto. Most of the time profiling isn't based on one person's past experiences, unless that person is a LEO that has a lot of dealings with different types. For the rest of us, we get our profiling "fears" from what we see on TV, the movies, or in the media.
 
#6 ·
This is where I have to differ with Sixto. Most of the time profiling isn't based on one person's past experiences, unless that person is a LEO that has a lot of dealings with different types. For the rest of us, we get our profiling "fears" from what we see on TV, the movies, or in the media.
Perhaps you are right, but I was more thinking of the big picture, and not so much the social aspects. I didnt mean to say that the clean cut person was always going to be harmless, I was saying that those people who give you the willy's do for a reason.
I know all to well about this, I just spent a lot of time in an undercover capacity. I had long hair, scruffy beard, earrings and the works after spending years as a clean cut guy... it was amazing to me how I was treated differently, and it was even more evident when I cut my hair and cleaned up just a few days ago.
 
#5 ·
I live in an area where an inordinate percentage of dirtbags have very obvious and elaborate tattoos and bizarre (to me) piercings. Other dirtbags of other racial groups wear baggy pants around their butt cracks showing off their boxers, they also generally have a very belligerent attitude.

These kinds of people I will watch more closely for trouble than others.
Is profiling of this type a reasonable defensive posture, or is it simply bigotry on the part of the profiler.
Possibly , but it may also keep you too busy to notice who's watching YOU.
 
#7 ·
Is profiling of this type a reasonable defensive posture, or ...
OMG, yes. If you fail to note potentially meaningful clues, it could be the last thing you do.

Claims of bigotry and howls of protest from the cheap seats? That's for those who can afford political correctness. They're not where I (and you) are standing, out there.

It's why I think the howls over "racial profiling" are ludicrous. A person's height, weight, apparent ethnicity, gender, clothing, demeanor, speech, attentiveness on you/others and other identifiable characteristics are merely clues to the puzzle, when a defensive posture must be maintained. Useful ones, at that.
 
#9 ·
I have tattoos and long hair---no piercings. No jail-house tats, mine are of high quality and high price. Done in my younger/military years. I've never been a city council member, I used to be a stamp collector, I get approved instantly when purchasing a firearm, I have the look of determination, I don't wear suits unless it's a wedding or a funeral, I basically dislike people until I know them, I love animals and I don't associate with riff-raff, I do shop at Wal-Mart, I help everyone I can, my credit may not be perfect, and everything I do I give at least 100%. I don't disrespect authority although I may often question it when given the opportunity. I think for myself and care for more than I should. In the words of a well-known country song-----"how do ya like me know?"
Profile away and have fun with yourself. Never judge a book by it's cover.
 
#10 ·
I honestly wouldnt give you a second look Ram... You might have the tats and hair etc., but you dont look like a BG at all. I guess its more about body language and how one carries themselves.

I look like a kid, and still get carded to buy beer... even though I'm well past 21. I've use that to my advantage on several occasions.
 
#11 ·
Its the "vibes." BGs often send off something--you just feel it. It isn't the clothes, the jewels, the tatoos. It is the bearing, the look, the eyes, the demeanor, the shifty nervousness, the tough guy swagger.

The most dangerous dudes are the ones who know how to fool you. They don't wear the outlandish stuff. They blend in. They look normal. They look properly dressed. They may speak softly and nicely. And they are cold dead inside.
 
#13 ·
I was wondering when how long it would take to bring this up given recent events.

I fit that profile, too a "T".

5'15", 165#, tattoos, pierced ears, long hair, prefer to wear my faded levis and "Caution, does not play well with others" T-shirt on my personal time, combat boots...your typical Hollywood biker appearance.

Since I am here...Never been arrested, only detained longer than your usual traffic stop once (suspicion of DUI on my bike - :banned: cop rode too and evidently not real good at it - blew a 0.0 on his little portable Breathalyzer), never been investigated or even spent time in a police car other than to fill out some paperwork.

I have 2 vices, Cigarettes and Coffee. I don't drink, or do drugs nor do I associate with those that do. I get paid to work a 12 hour day, so I work 12 hours. I might call in sick 1 time per year, always show up early to work or appointments, and typically stay late (READ - I do not watch the clock for the last 1/2 hour of my shift and run when time is up).

Now, I was also an officer in a local motorcycle club for 6 years, and in that seedy side of civilization, we do police our own. There have been some incidents that occurred that probably skirt the gray area of legalities, but no damage done.

I have a low tolerance for stupid, kids, and extremeists (political, religious...). I am an introvert and borderline A-social (FBI profile = not so good).

I get profiled by police, security, loss prevention and sheep. I accept it. It is the way people are. But I gotta tell ya, it is not me you need to watch, it is the one(s) you blew off as a non issue.



Nothing personal, but you should be looking more at how a person acts and talks rather than looks. It is what is inside the head that makes the person, not the appearance.
 
#14 ·
Well you had better look out for me then, 6'1" 200lbs high and tight haircut, one full sleeve and a 3/4 on other arm, plus legs back and chest, wear jeans and T shirt most of the time
I have been married for 22 years with 3 kids a mortgage and have operated my own business for 26 years.

Profile away, but be forwarned that the book is usually totally different than the cover leads you to believe.

Body language is what you should be paying attention to, not how the body is dressed or decorated, (unless it is obvious, you know, ski mask and trench coat) :rofl:
 
#15 ·
...(unless it is obvious, you know, ski mask and trench coat) :rofl:
Hey, watch it. Founding member of the "Trench Coat Mafia" (1986) as the media coined it after Columbine.
 
#18 ·
Tell me more, maybe I'm ready to change my image. The facial hair stays 'cause I don't want to get carded for cigarettes and beer.
 
#17 ·
Nothing personal, but you should be looking more at how a person acts and talks rather than looks. It is what is inside the head that makes the person, not the appearance.
Your choice how you look. My choice how I react. All other things being equal, your appearance could flip the scene from yellow to red in my mind. It would be an extreme situation, but what do you expect? That someone anti social (given the grooming) and aggressive (given the t-shirt) should get a pass? Try to look at it from someone else's point of view, instead of defending your costume.
 
#19 ·
Appearances, yep, they'll fool you.

I look like an older, overweight (working on it) version of RamRod. No tattoos or piercings. Couldn't see how long his hair is, mine is at the middle of my back, almost always tied. Full beard. I ride a customized Sportster on occasion, otherwise I'll be driving a black Lincoln (car doesn't fit the look, get odd reactions from border guards at US/Canada borders).

My appearance will likely fool the amateur profilers, but they don't worry me, they're usually wannabes (occasionally clueless LEO's but that's rare in my experience).

Sixto and Hopyard hit on the real things to watch in their earlier posts. Attitude. The eyes. Body language. Those are the real tells (though as Hopyard says, the real dangerous ones are those that know how to fool you).

I've known bikers and tattooed/pierced construction workers of all types. Some were real bad news. Some were the nicest most helpful SOB's you'll ever meet.

Me? Not perfect. Clean enough history to get the pass to work in nuclear power facilities on several separate occasions, and to get a security clearance to have worked construction for the State Dept. on classified areas of the new U.S. Embassy in Baghdad. I guess the government thinks I'm trustworthy enough.

ETA: BTW, in many ways, I'm more conservative than most. Can't tell that by looking at me either.
 
#22 ·
Yeah----pimpin' aint easy. ;) The shades stay.
 
#25 ·
No way. I pull them out one by one. At least you all have a face to go with the user now. Next time you give me the "eyeball", say something so I'll know it's you.
 
#28 ·
Tattoos have become mainstream. Lots of regular folks have them now.

I've got three myself. The latest is "Molon Labe" across my upper back. (I had considered getting a Spartan warrior underneath that as a full back piece, but as much as just the lettering hurt, I'm not so sure about that any more....)

I am, however, a firm believer in the idea that tats should be able to be covered by normal work attire. If I want to show mine off, I wear a tank top.

I also wear a goatee, and shave my head in the summer. And, yes, in my avatar pic, I was using that Just For Men hair dye. Thinking about doing it again, too -- it's about 3/4 gray.
 
#30 ·
Now the real question is: Why aren't we allowed to profile terrorists at the airports? Of all the suicide bombers, hijackers, etc. none of them were little old ladies. But the last time I went through the airport, I saw a couple of little old ladies and elderly men have to go through the "extra screening", while a bunch of young middle easterner men were allowed to walk right through. That doesn't make sense to me.
Don't think of the screening as an attempt to catch contraband. Think of it instead as an attempt to send a message to the terrorists. And the message is, "No matter who you recruit, there's a good chance we'll catch them before they can do any harm anyway. Better not try." So the apparently-stupid lack of profiling is actually an attempt to stop terrorism, but not at the individual level. It's just sending a message. (Lots of folks online like to decry this as "security theater," thinking its purpose is to soothe & lull the public into thinking they're protected; while it does do that, the intended audience is probably not the public, but the terrorists.)

*****

Tattoos have become mainstream. Lots of regular folks have them now.
A doctor friend of mine opines that 80% of his patients under the age of 30 have tats, "mostly where you can't see them..."

Wouldn't know, myself... I did see some amazing ink this weekend, people-watching in the city. Some of it was awesomely good (a full-colored parrot on a guy's shoulder caught my eye...) and some of it was amazingly bad (look, kid, just because you can get a drunk buddy with a needle to make a mess of your skin doesn't mean you should). And not to be judgemental or anything, but I do kind of think that it doesn't matter how rebellious you're feeling that weekend, or what your sexual orientation might be; if you're female and get a giant, tri-colored tatoo of a nude woman performing lascivious acts on your lower leg, someday you're likely to regret it ... *shudder*

pax
 
#32 ·
I have a shaved head. My whole back and one arm is covered in a huge japanese style tattoo.

I am 5'10" and about 210-230 lbs. depending on how often i get to the gym. About a year ago when I had more time to work out, I had 19" arms and benched 315lbs.

I have been putting 500-700 rounds a week down range and shoot IDPA and local club events.

I would like to work out more, but it is difficult to find time between being a great dad, a loving husband, and a tenured college professor with a heavy research and teaching schedule.
 
#33 ·
Bigotry, I don't think so but it is stereotyping without a doubt. I have long hair half way down my back, a beard and a mustache and ride a motorcycle. I've never even been arrested, let alone convicted of a crime. Have I been the victim of being judged because of my appearance? You betcha... and it sucks. I've been treated very poorly by doctors, police and security personel and others and all are unfounded accusations. I might not have graduated from college or even highschool but I did get my GED and took a few college classes and went on to work in the computer industry (Asst Network Admin, Level 2 Desktop Support and Sr. Field Technician) from being a truck driver for Roadway Express, where I got hurt on the job. I might look like a 'dirtbag biker' but I'm well versed in the English language and can hold my own in a conversation with the best of them. I'm proud of the fact that I didn't follow so many people I knew into a life of crime and drugs and I have a very high respect for not only law enforcement in general but the military as well. So why should I be judged by the ignorant? People should be judged by their actions, not their appearance. By doing so, you are promoting bigotry, even if it's to the people you are closest to: your wife and kids see how you react to other people and they know what you're thinking. They will copy your emotions towards other people and will further spread the distrust towards a specific group based on appearance.

One example you might want to consider: Years ago in 1993 there was a shooting on the L.I.R.R. in Long Island NY. The guy who shot and killed 6 people and wounded 19 others, was on his way home (I think) from work. He did not 'look' like a punk or a dirtbag.

Gunman Kills on L.I.R.R. Train; 19 Are Wounded

Colin Ferguson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
#34 ·
My father tells me stories of his days of growing up as a teen/young adult. With long hair or a beatles style hair-cut he was often stopped if he was just walking home from work or something by the police and questioned.

They didn't really like that "hippie" hairstyle back then, but my father is one of the most respectable people I know.

It comes and goes with the times...

Someone earlier mentioned you should be paying attention to who is watching YOU. I agree with that statement. When I was younger I was out on the boardwalk at ocean city with my best friend. We were about 15 at the time. This was during the day. We noticed a clean-cut business looking guy who was kinda watching us a little too closely. We sat down at a bench, he sat across. We walked into a store, he looked around outside...

Eventually we hoped a trollie as it was going by and lost him, but it sure was freaky/creepy. If say I was watching everyone else wondering about that scruffy looking bum guy over there, we might not have noticed the clean-cut business guy stalking us in time to do anything about it.

You can't help but have your gut feelings, and stereotypes from your own experiences, but just don't let them get to your head and consume your awareness/thoughts.

This may be easier for me, as I have grown up around such a variety of people here in Virginia that I have met bad guys of all types, and good guys of all types.

Oh, and to add... I might fit a profile on any given day. I have a full beard, that often gets pretty scruffy. I grow my hair until I feel like getting it shaved. So sometimes I look like a scruffy guy... other times completely clean cut. Just depends on the month :p
 
#36 ·
nativenyerintexas, I'm thinking you may want to re-read the above posts you quoted. The complaint made on each of those quotes don't seem to match the tone or content of any of them. Reading all of the posts and comments in the thread, particularly by those you quoted, may change your mind.

That being said, everyone is free to make their own choices about how they look and how someone responds to a certain "look" is most likely by their experiences. As such, everyone should rely on those signals that they get when encountering people. You should probably pay attention to those little voices sending. For the record, those of you that have posted pictures are not what catches my eye when I'm looking for threats. As someone else said, you guys look like some of neighbors....
 
#37 ·
The fact is that most people/society will initially judge you by your appearance.
Or even if they do not outright "judge" you - they will notice and pay extra attention to you if you do not fit into their notion of what is common, typical, usual or "normal" for that environment.
It's human nature and it will never change.
It may not be fair and you might not like it but, they will and always have since the dawn of Man.
I am not saying that it's a good thing or a bad thing only that it's a reality.

I'm absolutely certain that even in prehistoric times if everybody in the clan is wearing Lion skins and you are an "unknown" and wander into the cave wearing a Leopard skin...the Neanderthals are going to take notice and quickly try to determine "Friend or Foe" - that would only be logical for them to do that.

That having been said...human beings of many cultures and races and origins have been adorning, altering, modifying and tattooing and decorating their bodies since the dawn of time.
The earliest known tattoos date back to before recorded history.

My personal opinion is that people should look the way they want to look if that is the way they want to look.

Be aware of the fact that if your personal look strays too far away from the accepted "norm" it will affect things like your potential job opportunities.

AKA if you look like a zombie Goth and wear white face makeup with your eye sockets blackened and streaks of "blood" drawn on your face with red lipstick - you are probably not going to get that nursing job in the local hospital....and if you have a skull & crossbones tattooed on your neck and you like to wear a grim reaper cloak and walk around with a chainsaw...you can probably forget about getting very many babysitting jobs. :biggrin2:

If that does not bother you then go for it but, don't expect people not to notice you.

My only real point being that people will at least quietly judge you until they know you...and it does not matter if you like it or not.
They will.



Nope, Sorry ~ you are probably just not going to get that Dental Hygienist job no matter how qualified you might be. :hand5:
 
#58 ·
Understood, but being CHL, CCW, CPL, whatever your state calls them, we are held at a higher standard because we should know better from our training class. We should be able to put our prejudices aside and understand what the 'real' threat is and know it is not the guy wearing the punk rock costume just because he's wearing it or the homeless guy that hasn't showered in two weeks or even the inner city black kid who has his pants around his butt cheeks because all his friends think it looks cool. I understand people have their likes and dislikes as to what is acceptable appearences but to judge those looks as being a threat is not. Sorry, no way no how is anyone going to sell me on it. Because if you think about it, our appearance is just another form of freedom of expression for most of us, nothing more. By trying to surpress the way we look, or judging us on our looks thinking we will cause havoc more frequently than a person in a business suit is the same as the gun-grabbers thinking all CHL holders will open fire in a crowded movie theater. And we all know how stupid that is, right?
 
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