Self Defense Poll...

This is a discussion on Self Defense Poll... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by agentmel FWIW, we can argue all we want, but the above rationales are well-known to be economic fact. Government prohibition of something ...

View Poll Results: Gov't Police: Do they discourage average people from providing for their own defense?

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270. You may not vote on this poll
  • The existence of police highly discourages people to provide for their own defense.

    84 31.11%
  • The existence of police somewhat discourages people to provide for their own defense.

    85 31.48%
  • The existence of police neither encourages nor discourages people from providing their own defense.

    79 29.26%
  • The existence of police somewhat encourages people to provide for their own defense.

    7 2.59%
  • The existence of police highly encourages people to provide for their own defense.

    15 5.56%
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Thread: Self Defense Poll...

  1. #46
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agentmel View Post
    FWIW, we can argue all we want, but the above rationales are well-known to be economic fact. Government prohibition of something distasteful doesn't eliminate it, it just forces it underground, where it becomes more expensive and inspires crimes over territory, procurement, etc. Drugs are no different. Additionally, while I hate drugs and think they are terrible to put into one's body, I do not have the right to force my decision on anyone else, and neither do our "elected" officials have that right.
    The problem with the libertarian view of drug use is that it is short sighted and picks and chooses facts to justify erroneous conclusions.

    Drug use is not a victimless crime. That in itself should cause libertarians to realize that drugs should be illegal.

    The problem with legalization is that a black market would still exist. And it would be a huge black market.

    If drugs were legal for children under twenty-one, there would be a market for everyone under that age. People under the age of 21 consume the majority of illegal drugs, so an illegal market and organized crime to supply it would remain along with the organized crime that profits from it.

    You bring up Prohibition as an example of how the black marjet creates organized crime. The problem is that when Prohibition ended it did not go down. Organized crime simple moved to other criminal enterprises. Like I said, if everything is legal then there would be no crime.

    If you choose to legalize marijuana then what will preent the crime consistent with cocaine and heroin? Legalize those then you have meth and ecstasy. Where do you draw the line? No line? Do you support any illegal drug no matter how addicitve or dangerous?

    The greatest weakness of the arguments of legalization proponents is that the violence associated with drugs is simply a product of drug trafficking. The fact is that most of the violence is committed by people on drugs, not those who want to buy.

    Six times as many homicides are committed by people under the influence of drugs as by those who are looking for money to buy drugs. According to a recent study, more than half of people arressted for violent crime tested positive for drugs.

    Bottom line is that there is a causal relationship between drugs and crime. Legalization does not mitigate that relationship. Drugs should remain illegal and we should increase enforcement on both the supply side and the demand side.

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  3. #47
    Senior Member Array Phillep Harding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanislaskasava View Post
    How many drug addicts have you ever known that you would hire?
    The same number of alcohol addicts I'd hire.

    Zero.

  4. #48
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Drug use is not a victimless crime. That in itself should cause libertarians to realize that drugs should be illegal.
    I seriously fail to see how drug use is not a victim less crime. I'm having a nice, cold Labatt Blue right now. I'm unarmed, sitting in my shorts and tank top. My son is upstairs sleeping like a good little 19mo baby, my wife is watching Will and Grace on TV in the living room. So since alcohol is a drug (as is caffeine), who's the victim?

    Oh, yeah. Marijuana was made illegal to try to control the Mexican population entering the US. Opium and heroin were made illegal to control the and Asian population from entering the US, during the Gold Rush as was cocaine to keep the South Americans out. Gun laws and drug laws were born of racist origins. What say you? Can't change the facts.


    If you choose to legalize marijuana then what will preent the crime consistent with cocaine and heroin? Legalize those then you have meth and ecstasy. Where do you draw the line? No line? Do you support any illegal drug no matter how addicitve or dangerous?
    There should be no illegal drugs period. It's up to the individual to choose what, if any, drugs they take. The government has no right to tell people what to put into their bodies.

    Six times as many homicides are committed by people under the influence of drugs as by those who are looking for money to buy drugs. According to a recent study, more than half of people arressted for violent crime tested positive for drugs.
    "Drugs" includes alcohol, yes?

    Drugs should remain illegal and we should increase enforcement on both the supply side and the demand side.
    How much money has the government wasted on the war on drugs? How many hospitals, schools, fire stations could we have built with that money? Could we not pour that money into improving our infrastructure? Perhaps build a few nice parks for kids to play.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  5. #49
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    Getting back to the original topic,

    I have a lot of respect for the men and women in blue and feel that they do the best they can. However, we know that they can't be counted on to protect us.

    Unfortunately, the sheep with the entitlement mindset do think that the police (and the government in general) exist to take care of all their problems for them (to be fair to the poor sheep, this is an attitude that many in LE, particularly the "brass," actually advocate) . I think that the end-result of this attitude is a reduction of self-reliance.
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

  6. #50
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    I seriously fail to see how drug use is not a victim less crime.
    I suppose you think that everyone is completely disconnected from society and that despite hard data and overwhelming evidence of the causal realtionship between violent crime and illegal drugs that if you close your eye then you are absolved from responsibility.

    Oh, yeah. Marijuana was made illegal to try to control the Mexican population entering the US. Opium and heroin were made illegal to control the and Asian population from entering the US, during the Gold Rush as was cocaine to keep the South Americans out. Gun laws and drug laws were born of racist origins. What say you? Can't change the facts.
    Those are not the facts.

    There should be no illegal drugs period. It's up to the individual to choose what, if any, drugs they take. The government has no right to tell people what to put into their bodies.
    Society has every right to protect itself. I assume you are fine with meth labs on every corner. You have no problem with your children addicted to crack cocaine.

    "Drugs" includes alcohol, yes?
    Are you trying to argue that alcohol is not a contributor to crime and death? I suggest you try a different tack.

    How much money has the government wasted on the war on drugs? How many hospitals, schools, fire stations could we have built with that money? Could we not pour that money into improving our infrastructure? Perhaps build a few nice parks for kids to play.
    No waste at all. We should allocate more money to stop the influx of illegal drugs and stop the destruction of society by allowing addictions that are horrendously harmful. The cost of legalization will far exceed the prevention of drug crime. As I already argued, and it has been unchallenged, drug legalization will not stop or even slow crime. Further, the societal cost of increased addiction will widely outstrip any perceived savings of allowing drug addicts and pushers to roam unfettered through our neighborhoods.

    And I've never seen a single productive stoned person. Not to mention meth or crack addicts. And you want to see that behavior run rampant in society?

  7. #51
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    I suppose you think that everyone is completely disconnected from society and that despite hard data and overwhelming evidence of the causal realtionship between violent crime and illegal drugs that if you close your eye then you are absolved from responsibility.
    You didn't answer my question. How is drinking a beer in the privacy of my own home creating a victim.


    Those are not the facts.
    Sadly, they are. The History Channel exposes these in their "Illicit Drugs and How They Got That Way" series. All the major illegal drugs were made illegal to control non-whites immigrating into America. Harsh reality.

    Society has every right to protect itself. I assume you are fine with meth labs on every corner. You have no problem with your children addicted to crack cocaine.
    Society has no rights. Individuals have rights. If that's the choice my son makes in life, then he can take whatever consequences come with those choices.

    Are you trying to argue that alcohol is not a contributor to crime and death? I suggest you try a different tack.
    No, I'm trying to argue that "drugs" in those studies is very broad and does include alcohol. If you believe that the drugs that are illegal now should stay illegal, then alcohol, which is a major contributor of death in both crime and automobile accidents, should also be illegal. So should caffeine. The government already banned alcohol once. See how well that worked? Now they try to ban other drugs. Seems to work very well.


    No waste at all. We should allocate more money to stop the influx of illegal drugs and stop the destruction of society by allowing addictions that are horrendously harmful. The cost of legalization will far exceed the prevention of drug crime. As I already argued, and it has been unchallenged, drug legalization will not stop or even slow crime. Further, the societal cost of increased addiction will widely outstrip any perceived savings of allowing drug addicts and pushers to roam unfettered through our neighborhoods.
    Legalizing drugs is not about stopping or slowing crime. It's about freedoms. Disallowing drug use restricts freedoms of Americans. Why is it OK to drink a beer but not smoke a joint? Alcohol causes more damage and greater loss of life than marijuana, yet alcohol is legal.

    That's the problem with the drug war. You can't stop it [the drugs]. You can throw all the money in the world at the problem and it won't go away. That's a big problem with politics today. They think they can throw money at a problem and it will be gone. If that was the case, public schools would be top notch, but they aren't worth the paper I wipe my ass with.


    And I've never seen a single productive stoned person. Not to mention meth or crack addicts. And you want to see that behavior run rampant in society?
    You would be surprised of all the stoners that are multi-million dollar CEOs in America.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  8. #52
    VIP Member Array Paco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    You didn't answer my question. How is drinking a beer in the privacy of my own home creating a victim.
    You are killing off the weak and defenseless brain cells, you should be ashamed.
    "Don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep." - Theodore Roosevelt

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  9. #53
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    You didn't answer my question. How is drinking a beer in the privacy of my own home creating a victim.
    Your question is a non sequitur. We were discussing illegal drugs and the fact that drug use is not a victimless crime. If you want to discuss the degradation of society based on alcohol use then that is certainly true, as well. I doubt if you think that a drunk driver murdering countless innocents on our highways can be considered victimless.

    Sadly, they are. The History Channel exposes these in their "Illicit Drugs and How They Got That Way" series. All the major illegal drugs were made illegal to control non-whites immigrating into America. Harsh reality.
    Ah, the History Channel. You should have said that earlier.

    Of course, that premise is simply nonsense. Drug abuse has absolutely nothing to do with race. In fact, in the early 1900s opiates were common and not regulated. The amount of people addicted because of war injuries were staggering. That is why those drugs were mase illegal and regulated.

    Society has no rights. Individuals have rights.
    Of course, that is wrong. Society (ie government) not only has a right but a responsibility to every citizen to maintain the general welfare. The blueprint for our government is the Constitution. It describes the powers given to government by the people. And you can't pick and choose the parts of the Consitution with which you agree.

    If that's the choice my son makes in life, then he can take whatever consequences come with those choices.
    And the consequences of using illegal drugs are fines, jail and psychological counseling.

    No, I'm trying to argue that "drugs" in those studies is very broad and does include alcohol. If you believe that the drugs that are illegal now should stay illegal, then alcohol, which is a major contributor of death in both crime and automobile accidents, should also be illegal. So should caffeine. The government already banned alcohol once. See how well that worked?
    We can certainly see how well legalizing alcohol has worked. Tens of thousands of deaths every year. Broken homes. Domestic violence. Diseases. Cancers.

    And you use that as an example for legalizing worse drugs?

    Now they try to ban other drugs. Seems to work very well.
    It iscertainly an ongoing battle. We are absolutely controlling illegal drug use. We are intercepting tens of millions ofdollars of drugs every year coming through our borders. We are shutting down meth labs. We are educating our children as to the horrible consequences of drug use. And we are succeeding. Can we eradicate all illegal drugs? Of course not. Neither can we prevent all bank robberies. But we still punish bank robbers.

    Legalizing drugs is not about stopping or slowing crime. It's about freedoms. Disallowing drug use restricts freedoms of Americans.
    The unsupportable libertarian view is that "if it doesn't hurt anyone else then I should be able to do it." Of course, the fallacy is that the libertarian also defines what he thinks harms someone else. Drug use is a proven societal problem from addiction, to crime, to health costs to lack of productivity to family crises, to the simple fact that it makes people stupid. Yes, drug use harms society and it is government's responsibility to do what is in the best interest of the people.

    Why is it OK to drink a beer but not smoke a joint? Alcohol causes more damage and greater loss of life than marijuana, yet alcohol is legal.
    You keep going back to alcohol as if you can defend the harm alcohol causes. Justifying a problem by pointing to another problem is a logical fallacy. Your argument is far stronger for making alcohol illegal than for making drugs legal.

    That's the problem with the drug war. You can't stop it [the drugs]. You can throw all the money in the world at the problem and it won't go away. That's a big problem with politics today. They think they can throw money at a problem and it will be gone. If that was the case, public schools would be top notch, but they aren't worth the paper I wipe my ass with.
    Why do we waste our time and resources tracking down robbers, rapists and murderers? We have thrown so much money at the problem but we still have rapists and murderers. You can throw money at the problem and it won't go away.

    Do you now see how your argument fails?

    You would be surprised of all the stoners that are multi-million dollar CEOs in America.
    Do you care to provide examples and evidence? I will go out on a limb and say there are no CEOs in the top 500 companies that are 'stoners.'

  10. #54
    Member Array PocketRocket's Avatar
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    Which would you rather have coming down the road toward your family car?. A drunk driver (alcohol legal) or a driver who has a buzz from smoking pot? (illegal)
    "An armed society is a polite society"

  11. #55
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PocketRocket View Post
    Which would you rather have coming down the road toward your family car?. A drunk driver (alcohol legal) or a driver who has a buzz from smoking pot? (illegal)
    I hope you are not condoning driving under the influence of illegal drugs as if it posed no danger. I would rather have neither coming down the road and laws exist to haul both of them to jail.

    Which would you rather have coming down the road to your family car? A guy who had a beer with lunch or a meth head who just did a rock of cocaine?

  12. #56
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Your question is a non sequitur. We were discussing illegal drugs and the fact that drug use is not a victimless crime. If you want to discuss the degradation of society based on alcohol use then that is certainly true, as well. I doubt if you think that a drunk driver murdering countless innocents on our highways can be considered victimless.
    Again, until you can prove how me having a beer is creating a victim, we are done. The use of alcohol in and of itself did not kill the person it was the actions of the drunk. If we go with your analysis, guns are to blame for all crimes they are used in.



    Ah, the History Channel. You should have said that earlier.

    Of course, that premise is simply nonsense. Drug abuse has absolutely nothing to do with race. In fact, in the early 1900s opiates were common and not regulated. The amount of people addicted because of war injuries were staggering. That is why those drugs were mase illegal and regulated.
    You are a complete fool to think drug laws are not racially motivated. I stated the facts, you choose to ignore them.

    Of course, that is wrong. Society (ie government) not only has a right but a responsibility to every citizen to maintain the general welfare. The blueprint for our government is the Constitution. It describes the powers given to government by the people. And you can't pick and choose the parts of the Consitution with which you agree.
    Governments have no rights.

    And the consequences of using illegal drugs are fines, jail and psychological counseling.
    I've taken illegal drugs many times over many years. I've never had a fine, spent a second in jail, or had psychological counseling.

    We can certainly see how well legalizing alcohol has worked. Tens of thousands of deaths every year. Broken homes. Domestic violence. Diseases. Cancers.
    Imagine if it were still illegal.

    It iscertainly an ongoing battle. We are absolutely controlling illegal drug use. We are intercepting tens of millions ofdollars of drugs every year coming through our borders. We are shutting down meth labs. We are educating our children as to the horrible consequences of drug use. And we are succeeding.
    Thanks for that laugh. I needed that.


    The unsupportable libertarian view is that "if it doesn't hurt anyone else then I should be able to do it." Of course, the fallacy is that the libertarian also defines what he thinks harms someone else. Drug use is a proven societal problem from addiction, to crime, to health costs to lack of productivity to family crises, to the simple fact that it makes people stupid. Yes, drug use harms society and it is government's responsibility to do what is in the best interest of the people.
    It is about freedoms. Every time a law is passed our freedoms are restricted. Governments do what is in the best interest of the government. Governments will always try to remain in power, even though they fail to accept the fact that they are subordinate to the people.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  13. #57
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    Again, until you can prove how me having a beer is creating a victim, we are done. The use of alcohol in and of itself did not kill the person it was the actions of the drunk. If we go with your analysis, guns are to blame for all crimes they are used in.
    You continue to change the subject. Now you are equating the legal use of guns to illegal drug use?

    The use of alcohol is extraordinarily harmful to society. You think that is not the case? I already provided statistics for the number of deaths caused by alcohol and the harm it does to society. If you are unwilling to look at the facts then, indeed, we are done.

    You are a complete fool to think drug laws are not racially motivated. I stated the facts, you choose to ignore them.
    You stated what you learned in a half hour television show. I could suggest some reference materials but it seems your mind is made up.


    Governments have no rights.
    The government has powers. Rights, powers, it makes no never mind what you call it. And the fact is that the people are the government.

    I've taken illegal drugs many times over many years. I've never had a fine, spent a second in jail, or had psychological counseling.
    Why am I not surprised? And you're proud of breaking the law and harming your body?

    It is about freedoms. Every time a law is passed our freedoms are restricted. Governments do what is in the best interest of the government. Governments will always try to remain in power, even though they fail to accept the fact that they are subordinate to the people.
    No, government is not subordinate to the people. What made you think that? The government of the United States is of the people, by the people and for the people.

    I assume you are against the laws against rape and murder, too. After all, it restricts your freedoms. Or is it only you who has the wisdom to determine what should be law.

  14. #58
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    You continue to change the subject. Now you are equating the legal use of guns to illegal drug use?

    The use of alcohol is extraordinarily harmful to society. You think that is not the case? I already provided statistics for the number of deaths caused by alcohol and the harm it does to society. If you are unwilling to look at the facts then, indeed, we are done.
    Ban alcohol again and see how more lives are taken. See how many other freedom robbing laws are passed due to the increase in crimes. Prohibition is the root cause of why we have such harsh restrictions on machine guns and such.

    The government has powers. Rights, powers, it makes no never mind what you call it. And the fact is that the people are the government.
    Not any more. It's us versus them.

    No, government is not subordinate to the people. What made you think that? The government of the United States is of the people, by the people and for the people.
    You really believe that still exists today? The government of the US is tyrannical, unjust, and definitely not for the people. 80% of the federal government is illegal, the other 20% isn't worth the paper I wipe my butt with.

    Or is it only you who has the wisdom to determine what should be law.
    Seems you are in the same boat.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  15. #59
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    I'm not giving my opinion on the legalization of drugs..........(and I'm not a mod), but...........

    this thread has been severely hijacked
    the OP was about LEO/presence of LEO having an impact on people providing for their own self defense, including a poll on the topic

    if a discussion on the effects and pros/cons of legalizing drugs is needed, please go start one in the appropriate section
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  16. #60
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    I don't think that the existance of the police changes people response to self protection. Those that are interested in it will take measure those that aren't won't regardless of the police pressence.

    I do agree that the the police are more or less a reactionary force. In some instances they are proactive, but very few. That is a because we as a society have become a bunch of whiners and lawsuit happy people that give even blatant criminals the benefit of the doubt, somehow hopeing that if they are ever caught someone will give them a break too.

    As far as the illegal drugs and such. Well the facts are pretty clear. We are not winning the war on drugs, simply spinning our wheels. The Netherlands has lower incedence of drug addiction and drugs are legal there. The facts are that there were more crimes related to alcohol during prohabition than there are today, and more deaths also due to illegal alcohol related crimes. If you don't think so, your simply ignorant to the facts. Yes there are more deaths due to drunk driving and such today, but during prohabition, most people couldn't afford cars, and they didn't go very fast.

    Are there people on illegal drugs that are productive members of society, well heck yes. Are there people that are on illegal drugs that are not productive, well yes also, but they would most likely be non productive members of society anyway, we have plenty of them go go around.

    The facts are that we have the highest incarceration rate of most all industrialized nations. We are near the top of the chart when related to violent crimes of most industrialized nations. We have one of the highest drug usage rates, whether legal or illegal of any industrialized nation. We are near the top of most "bad" things when you compare us to the rest of the industrialized world. Those are the facts.

    I don't think that making things legal or illegal are going to change any of it. It might however save many resources from trying to enforce laws that people aren't going to pay attention to. How many times has it been stated that criminals aren't going to abide by any gun laws that are passed. Well why does anyone think that someone who wants to do drugs is going to abide by any drug law. What it boils down to, is that we as Americans basically feel that we are entitled to do what ever we feel we want to do, and to hell with anyone that says different, like it or not.

    Back to the original intent of the post, well those that feel the police are going to make them any safer, well that is a slim chance. Nothing against the police, but all they can do is their best. But they can't be everywhere all the time. People are going to do what they want when they want regardless of the laws, or law enforcement, that is why we choose to protect ourselves.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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