First time Travel & CCW to Florida -- quick Questions!

This is a discussion on First time Travel & CCW to Florida -- quick Questions! within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Having traveled a number of times, here's how I go at it: Put the unloaded weapon(s) in a lockable hard-sided case with locks only you ...

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Thread: First time Travel & CCW to Florida -- quick Questions!

  1. #16
    Member Array GHFLRLTD's Avatar
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    The Airplane Part..

    Having traveled a number of times, here's how I go at it:

    1. Put the unloaded weapon(s) in a lockable hard-sided case with locks only you have the keys to open. TSA locks are not allowed.
    2. Check the airline(s) you are flying on:
      • Determine if the ammo MUST be in boxes OR can fly in loaded magazines.
      • If loaded magazines are permitted, make sure the pouches fully cover the magazines.
      • The round from the pipe(s) must be in a box, not loose.
    3. Secure and protect magazines and ammunition boxes from possible damage.
    4. Put the lockable hard-sided case with the weapon and the ammo/magazines into a cheap, non-descript bag - with clear labeling outside and inside - for checking in. The labeling should be limited to:
      • Your Name
      • Your Cell Phone - if you have one, or your home phone if you do not
      • Your personal email address - if you have one
      • NO ADDRESSES, JOB TITLES, ORGANIZATIONS SHOULD BE INDICATED
    5. Other stuff - like shampoo, mouthwash, toothpaste, etc, could be in this checked bag also.
    6. Have the rules for the airline in hand when you check this non-descript bag at the airport.
    7. Make sure you have the keys to the lockable hard-sided case with you and you alone (Per Federal Regulations 1540.111 Carriage of weapons, explosives, and incendiaries by individuals - Electronic Code of Federal Regulations:) at all times. You will have to open the lockable hard-side case
      • to demonstrate to the airline that the weapon(s) are not loaded at check in
      • if the TSA wants to see.
    8. Have the serial number(s) and descriptions of your weapons on you, so if they "disappear" you can report the loss/theft to the:
      • airline
      • FAA Regional Office
      • ATF Regional Office
      immediately.

    The ptomaine emporium rules regarding being in a place that sells alcohol means that you can be there and drink - but not at the bar.

    As to the Convention Center, it may be off limits, but I am not sure. The only time it was an issue was in 2003 for the NRA convention.

    Review the deadly force rules carefully. Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : flsenate.gov

    You have the ability to meet force with equal force to stop a forceable felony, and THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT TO RETREAT, YOU CAN NOT BE ARRESTED, AND YOUR GUN CAN NOT BE TAKEN FROM YOU SIMPLY FOR USING IT. YOU ARE IMMIUNE FROM CIVIL SUITS UNLESS AND UNTIL YOU ARE FOUND GUILTY OF A CRIMINAL ACT.
    George H. Foster
    Orlando, Florida

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array David in FL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilitaryPower View Post
    As for not carrying IN a bar, even if it's not in the bar area, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. I think it spells it out pretty clearly in this direct quote from 790:
    any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose.

    Portion, portion, portion.

    If I am indeed wrong, please, please show me. I am all for doing the legal thing and would hate to misunderstand the law. And for what I can see, it's legal.
    I'm not sure how you could be in a bar but not in a bar area.......Can you give an example of what you mean? When I think bar I think tavern....a couple of pool tables and a jukebox. Even it you're sitting at a table by the pool table, munching on a basket of bad microwave nachos, you're still in a portion of the establishment that is primarily devoted to selling and serving alcohol because, pretty much by definition the entire establishment is primarily devoted to selling and serving alcohol....

    Gutmacher writes.....

    "In other words, if you go into a restaurant, you can't go in the bar, you can't even walk through the bar -- but you can sit at a dinner table, go to other places within the establishment not within or throug the bar area, and even order drinks with your meal, or just order drinks"

    He's clearly talking about the bar as an area and is adamant in his insistence that you avoid even passing through.

    Now, wanna have some real fun? You do know that it's not illegal to ccw while intoxicated in FL.......right?!

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilitaryPower View Post
    As for not carrying IN a bar, even if it's not in the bar area, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. I think it spells it out pretty clearly in this direct quote from 790:
    any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose.

    Portion, portion, portion.

    If I am indeed wrong, please, please show me. I am all for doing the legal thing and would hate to misunderstand the law. And for what I can see, it's legal.
    MP,

    In addition to what David said above, Gutmacher writes about FL's prohibited places on pg. 68:

    11. In any portion of a restaurant, bar, nightclub, or other establishment licensed to serve alcohol for consumption on the premises (not a liquor store which only sells the packaged stuff vs. serving it) in the portion of the premises that is primarily devoted to that purpose.

    To me, a 'bar' is by definition 'devoted' to the sale of alcohol, while a restaurant is not. If I go to Texas Roadhouse (a restaurant with a bar area), I am good to eat, even consume alcoholic beverages, in the non-bar portion of that establishment. If I walk into the bar area, I am in violation of FL law. Same for Chili's Grill and Bar.

    On the other hand, if I go to the Mai Tiki Bar on the Cocoa Beach Pier, I am likely in violation of the law in any portion of that establishment since it's primary purpose is the sale of alcohol, not food, even though they serve food.

    Now, does it get dicey sometimes deciding which is which? Absolutely. If I go to a bar and grill, is it a bar, or a grill?
    I would personally argue, it is both, and I would be okay in the grill area, but not the bar area. Would LE agree? Would a State's Attorney? Grand Jury? Jury of my peers? I don't know the answer to that. I also don't intend to find out.

    It reminds me of the saying that one never wants to see how laws and sausages are made. The laws are poorly written, and usually do not deal with 'unintended consequences.'
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein

  5. #19
    Senior Member Array MilitaryPower's Avatar
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    LOL. Ok, here's an example. Building (bar) has a pool tables, eating tables, dance floor, and a bar (picture a long counter against the wall with beautiful women and dudes with tight black shirts on manning it with dozens of bottles behind them). This is all in one big room, with say and arcades and restrooms down a side hallway. From what I grasp, it would be legal to be in all areas except the portion (aka area) over by the bar. If the bar was in a separate room or an alcove in the main room, that would be off limits. Sound reasonable?

    It doesn't say that an establishment that primarily serves alcohol is off limits. It just says that the portion of that establishment that primarily dispenses alcohol for drinking on the premises is off limits.

    790.151 Using firearm while under the influence of alcoholic beverages, chemical substances, or controlled substances; penalties.--

    (1) As used in ss. 790.151-790.157, to "use a firearm" means to discharge a firearm or to have a firearm readily accessible for immediate discharge.

    (2) For the purposes of this section, "readily accessible for immediate discharge" means loaded and in a person's hand.

    (3) It is unlawful and punishable as provided in subsection (4) for any person who is under the influence of alcoholic beverages, any chemical substance set forth in s. 877.111, or any substance controlled under chapter 893, when affected to the extent that his or her normal faculties are impaired, to use a firearm in this state.

    (4) Any person who violates subsection (3) commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

    (5) This section does not apply to persons exercising lawful self-defense or defense of one's property.
    Close, but no cigar .
    Gun control can be blamed in part for allowing 9/11 to happen.
    "Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum" (Latin)- "If you want peace, prepare for war".

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array David in FL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilitaryPower View Post
    LOL. Ok, here's an example. Building (bar) has a pool tables, eating tables, dance floor, and a bar (picture a long counter against the wall with beautiful women and dudes with tight black shirts on manning it with dozens of bottles behind them). This is all in one big room, with say and arcades and restrooms down a side hallway. From what I grasp, it would be legal to be in all areas except the portion (aka area) over by the bar. If the bar was in a separate room or an alcove in the main room, that would be off limits. Sound reasonable?

    It doesn't say that an establishment that primarily serves alcohol is off limits. It just says that the portion of that establishment that primarily dispenses alcohol for drinking on the premises is off limits.



    Close, but no cigar .

    I actually asked the question of Jon a couple of years back. He was pretty adamant that a separate tavern is a definite no go in his opinion......of course, he also said that he's always willing to defend a "test case", but then he's getting paid for it and doesn't have to worry about losing his permit, or worse, either.

    The FL statute bends over backwards to keep from prohibiting ccw in any place that dispenses alcohol (as do many states)......and although the wording might be a little inelegant, I really don't think it's that ambiguous..... I think that you'd have a hard time convincing anyone that in the case of a "bar", that the entire establishment isn't devoted primarily to dispensing alcohol for consumption.

    Up to you, but I'm not putting my permit on the line based on that interpretation......and I wouldn't recommend that an out-of-state visitor do so either........that would be inhospitable!

  7. #21
    Senior Member Array MilitaryPower's Avatar
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    Absolutely, we don't want to spread bad info.

    This portion of the statute is rather ambiguous. Alcohol is all over, bar and grills, restaurants, nightclubs, ect. How are to be sure of what is acceptable and what is not? I wonder where we could get a definite answer. State Attorney?
    Gun control can be blamed in part for allowing 9/11 to happen.
    "Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum" (Latin)- "If you want peace, prepare for war".

  8. #22
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    I've spoken with Jon Gutmacher about this as well (very approachable, pleasant guy, BTW).

    My recollection was that if you have an establishment with a clearly definable delineation between the bar area and the rest of the establishment, then you are fine to carry in the area outside the bar.

    By clear delineation, I mean a row of booths with a wall or other barrier (think Outback or the like).

    If you cannot articulate a clear delineation based on a physical boundary or feature between the bar and the rest of the establishment, then it is safest to assume the entire establishment is off limits.

    This is the sort of area of the law where you're never going to have an absolute black and white answer, and you'll have to rely on judgment and common sense to determine where you are good to go, and where you should not go while armed.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  9. #23
    Member Array Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilitaryPower View Post
    From my understanding of the law (and others), you can be in a restaurant, pool hall, club, or even bar, as long as you are not at THE BAR, which is the portion of the establishment devoted to drinking alcoholic beverages. So the table or booth distanced away from the bar is ok for example. You cannot be under the influence of alcohol however.
    I don't think that's accurate in Florida. I carry here and I believe the restriction is to not carry in the bar area (usually a pretty well defined area). Also, there is no law stating you can't have a drink while carrying your pistol. Common sense would suggest you drink responsibly.

  10. #24
    Member Array tngunner's Avatar
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    beating a dead horse?

    Laws are for people who care about laws. I am one of them. I do not break laws intentionally, but every now and again you need to carry your firearm for your saftey and families safety. If you want to go hell raising and drinking leave said firearm at home. Now you and your family are on vacation in orlando and your are out eating at a fine establishment that serves spirits for consumption you must conceal and conceal deeply. That is the only way your families saftey is guaranteed. With that said absolutely no drinking. Orlando is a very dangerous place.

    Orlando FL.
    General Information: Violent vs. Property Crime Rate:
    State: Florida (FL) Violent Crime Property Crime
    City Population: 197,268

    Murder: 21
    Forcible Rape: 136
    Robbery: 849
    Aggravated Assault: 2,316 Is 3.24 times the National Average
    Burglary: 3,593
    Larceny or Theft: 11,511
    Car Theft: 1,920
    Arson: 48

    Data Source:2003 FBI Report of Offenses Known to Law Enforcement

    Orlando Crime Statistics (FL) - CityRating.com

    Stay Armed!!
    Last edited by tngunner; June 3rd, 2008 at 12:26 AM. Reason: content

  11. #25
    Member Array dealer's Avatar
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    I flipped through the Gutmacher book again last night to come back and post in here with what I thought, but I see that it's been covered by some of the other FL members.

    Definite grey area. You just have to use some caution and logic when determining where to go.

  12. #26
    Member Array GOPony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tngunner View Post
    Laws are for people who care about laws. I am one of them. I do not break laws intentionally, but every now and again you need to carry your firearm for your saftey and families safety. If you want to go hell raising and drinking leave said firearm at home. Now you and your family are on vacation in orlando and your are out eating at a fine establishment that serves spirits for consumption you must conceal and conceal deeply. That is the only way your families saftey is guaranteed. With that said absolutely no drinking. Orlando is a very dangerous place.

    Orlando FL.
    General Information: Violent vs. Property Crime Rate:
    State: Florida (FL) Violent Crime Property Crime
    City Population: 197,268

    Murder: 21
    Forcible Rape: 136
    Robbery: 849
    Aggravated Assault: 2,316 Is 3.24 times the National Average
    Burglary: 3,593
    Larceny or Theft: 11,511
    Car Theft: 1,920
    Arson: 48

    Data Source:2003 FBI Report of Offenses Known to Law Enforcement

    Orlando Crime Statistics (FL) - CityRating.com

    Stay Armed!!
    Finally something i can show the wife so i don't have to go to disney again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! of course she will just say, well since you can carry now, we can go. ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

  13. #27
    Member Array tngunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GOPony View Post
    Finally something i can show the wife so i don't have to go to disney again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! of course she will just say, well since you can carry now, we can go. ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
    Good luck with that GOpony,
    I used these same stats for my wife and guess who is going to Disney on the 20th of this month? But I will be armed when in Orlando. Maybe not the park itself but definately Orlando.

  14. #28
    Member Array vanilla_gorilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilitaryPower View Post
    Absolutely, we don't want to spread bad info.

    This portion of the statute is rather ambiguous. Alcohol is all over, bar and grills, restaurants, nightclubs, ect. How are to be sure of what is acceptable and what is not? I wonder where we could get a definite answer. State Attorney?

    One of our AR15.com members wrote the SAO, and most direct portion of his answer was essentially to "check the statutes" while the rest of his answer was a lot of side-stepping the question.
    I'll take a .45 and a large side of JHPs, please.

  15. #29
    Distinguished Member Array T Bone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vanilla_gorilla View Post
    One of our AR15.com members wrote the SAO, and most direct portion of his answer was essentially to "check the statutes" while the rest of his answer was a lot of side-stepping the question.
    Yup. SGB noted in a thread in Carry Issues (on Florida Law) in response to me "Unfortunately the States Attorney only gives opinions to LE/Gov & Municipalities".

    So, a well versed attorney is your best bet. A consensus of more than one is even better. There is not going to be a definitive answer until a test case goes through the mill. I wouldn't wish that on anyone!
    Regards, T Bone.


    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety". Benjamin Franklin

  16. #30
    Member Array nlax2011's Avatar
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    All good stuff being said. And I agree with the majority opinion here that "non-bar areas" of restaurants are ok, but a typical bar/tavern may not be.

    Last time I went out with a group to a local bar I just left my gun in the car. In my experience just about everytime I go to a bar/club/tavern it gets pretty crowded at some point and you constantly have other people bumping into ya, last thing I want is for some un-needed attention that turns into a test case on this issue.

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