Almost pulled my gun today
This is a discussion on Almost pulled my gun today within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Congratulations on handling the situation well. Unfortunately, had you drawn, the burden of proof would have been on you to justify it.
I would also ...
June 3rd, 2008 07:40 PM
Congratulations on handling the situation well. Unfortunately, had you drawn, the burden of proof would have been on you to justify it.
I would also add that a defensive pistol course that prepares you for a close-range, moving, advancing target could be really valuable. Not the same as standing still, firing at a paper target. (Maybe you've been to a course like that, I'm just putting it out there for the readers).
June 3rd, 2008 07:40 PM
June 3rd, 2008 07:46 PM
OK, the 5' distance is a problem since the issue escalated that far.
I think the biggest problem is that the verbal exchange on the OP's part was mediocre at best. When you're worried about a possible confrontation, you need to understand, or at least make an effort to understand how your words will be RECEIVED by the other party. The words and phrases the OP used were very authoritative and correct. However, the same result could have been achieved with less confrontation had he done a couple things.
1) use your cell phone to take a photo of the van with the license plate. That gives you more info and you have your cell phone in your hand should it be immediately needed.
2) "Suggest" that someone has already called the cops about the bad parking job. Don't "tell" them that you've called the cops. Suggesting makes it sound like you're trying to help them to avoid an expensive ticket. Telling them sounds like a great place for them to start venting their frustrations.
3) Never back your opponent into a corner from which he can't escape in a face-saving manner. You're more likely to get a "cornered cat" response. Create that psychological space that allows the other guy to walk away without having to prove which of you is "more bad." Remember that he may live in that neighborhood and is concerned that his friends are watching. If he thinks that you're "disrespecting him," you've got a far bigger problem than had you wisely talked to him like neither of you had anything to prove.
June 3rd, 2008 07:48 PM
Not to be critical.I would have written down the plate from a distance,without it appearing obvious.Then I could walk back to the office and call about a car parked illegally.It is not about fear,it is just wise not to engage these types of idiots.Even if you come out on top it is better to do it the easy way.
June 3rd, 2008 07:51 PM
From his description it sounded like the two were stacked one behind or beside the other and within close proximity to each other as relative to the OPs own position.
Originally Posted by tabraha
Firing in a 'V' is not difficult to cover two targets at once be it (or firearm) and if it were a fogger type both persons would be sucking wind as well.
I've seen just such a scenario play out IRL with single police officer vs. three knuckleheads (two active aggravators and one hanger on). The officer had a fogger type and within seconds all three went from eff you defiant to ahh damn compliant.
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
"A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing
June 3rd, 2008 08:04 PM
Ok, I'm a newbie to this world so take what I say with that in mind.
Originally Posted by TXGLOCK29
Jeff Cooper taught about the various stages you should be in. Here is Condition Orange. The next stage is where it gets nasty.
Orange - Specific alert. Something is not quite right and has gotten your attention. Your radar has picked up a specific alert. You shift your primary focus to determine if there is a threat (but you do not drop your six). Your mindset shifts to "I may have to shoot HIM today." In Condition Orange, you set a mental trigger: "If that goblin does "x", I will need to stop him." Your pistol usually remains holstered in this state. Staying in Orange can be a bit of a mental strain, but you can stay in it for as long as you need to. If the threat proves to be nothing, you shift back to Condition Yellow.
In Orange, you should set a mental trigger at which point you draw. Did you set that mental trigger?
If you set it and kept to it, you did okay. If you didn't set that trigger in your mind then, I think, you failed Jeff Cooper's way. If you don't accept his way, no big deal.
I would have drawn and aimed myself. Two against one with one making verbal threats and acting aggressively?
June 3rd, 2008 08:07 PM
Isn't there a stat that a cop with a gun holstered vs a badguy with a knife at 21 feet will get cut 50% of the time?
Originally Posted by Puppy
5 feet has got to be way higher even if he didn't have a knife.
June 3rd, 2008 08:20 PM
you did great but as far as the five feet he could have had a knife in you before u even cleared the holster. 21 feet is the closest to a safe distance you can have.
June 3rd, 2008 08:56 PM
yes, choice of words could have been different
BUT...the moment he said he would "crack your head" and came towards you, you would have been justified in drawing, letting him get within 5ft could have been deadly
Certified Glock Armorer
not enough space for list, main gear: duty-G17, S&W 642 bug, 870, RRA AR-15; G30 off-duty
Independence is declared; it must be maintained. Sam Houston-3/2/1836
If loose gun laws are good for criminals why do criminals support gun control?
June 3rd, 2008 09:12 PM
Well I made my comments, but here is a reinforcing comment on the 21foot rule. It just emphasizes why you need to keep some distance.
You're alive, so how could you have done the wrong thing?
Texas uses "what a reasonable person would have understood" to be the benchmark for assessing your perception of a threat. In that, come a lot of things to process. When this type of scenario was brought up when I was being trained, some questions I was given to help us think were:
~ You’re 1 person, they are several...if you were assaulted would your life be threatened? If you were punched in the head from 5feet away could you be knocked out?
~ How do you stack up physically? You weigh 150lbs and they weigh over 200lbs each. Could they wrestle your firearm away from you even if they don't have a weapon? Unknowns in your description.
~ Did they make threats that could be carried out if they wanted to, weapon or not? (You are 80 years old and they are both in their 20's)
Just a few I remember, and nothing above should be the benchmark for you but they should be used to get you to think that if you are threatened can they carry that threat out? If you over think anything you can wait too long to act to protect yourself.
You don't have to point your weapon at anyone...you could have simply pulled it out to let them know you aren't going to be a victim to any of the threats, while you put distance between you. This is one of those scenarios that could easily have gone either way and you lucked out in the path you chose. It wasn't wrong....I am glad it wasn't me.
June 3rd, 2008 09:30 PM
With hindsight being 20-20, I would not have gone to investigate the Van. I would have just called the police.
In that type of situation, pocket carry is your friend. You can have your hand on the gun with no one knowing. That way you can shorten the response time if needed to draw. Backing away and not showing fear helped keep them at bay.
"If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking" - George S. Patton.
June 3rd, 2008 10:16 PM
I think the idea of keeping 21 feet between you and the guy your talking to might be a bit extreme. In the real world it doesn't happen. I work in a gas station on the weekends and if we ever got held up, the robber would be about 3 feet away from me on the other side of the counter when he made his intentions known.
Its best not to be confrontational and its always good to be polite. "Could you keep your van off the grass, please." is a nice start. He might still call you cracker, but your not likely to get the physical threats.
In the US today, even if you win a gunfight, you loose. If you had to draw your gun and shoot those guys, right now you'd be looking to sell all your stuff to pay for a lawyer, and likely those guys families would have taken whatever you had left whether you were convicted or not.
"I hate to advocate weird chemicals, alcohol, violence or insanity to anyone... but they've always worked for me." - H.S.T.
June 3rd, 2008 10:55 PM
5 feet ?? Seems to have jumped out at everyone.... anything less than 15 ft and my hand would have been on my hip... right on the gun grip. And, I would 2nd... they could come back, so heads up.
June 3rd, 2008 11:23 PM
While the distance was not ideal, in an ideal world this would not have happened and there would be no need to carry, but this is not an ideal world. That being said there is another thing you may want to look into. If the streets in that community are private (not owned or maintained by the local or state government) you could get the Homw Owners Association attorney to bar them from the community. If they show up they could be charged with criminal tresspass. By having the license number he the driver was the owner the local police can get his name and address and give it to the attorney for that purpose. In the meantime keep an eye on yout six and don't take the same route home twice in a row if you can help it. Good luck.
June 3rd, 2008 11:30 PM
Call the cops and let them approach the vehicle. It would have kept this entire incident from occurring.
June 4th, 2008 06:06 AM
44 posts, lots of evaluation (5' was beat to death) and I have only seen 2 statements of immediate advice.
The biggest thing that stood out to me was;
I am of the opinion that this is not over yet.
...They got in their vehicle and began to slowly follow me as I walked back to my office. I was praying that I wasn't going to be a victim of a driveby...
Watch your 6, be aware of ANY out of place vehicles around your work and home, randomize your route.
Who (BGs) uses knives anymore? That is one thing that I rarely if ever see in the news. 21' is a good conflict rage to be extra aware for anything when there is the potential for conflict. Like Lima said, if it is going to happen, it is most likely going to be within 7 feet be it a beating/stomping, or getting shot at.
As for future advice on how to handle this type of scenario, thats been covered.
Hit my limit for speculation, the sky is falling, and gun owners fighting amongst themselves.
UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL!
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