Really need your help and advice!
This is a discussion on Really need your help and advice! within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Here is the scenario... My mother was walking on a deserted beach in the late afternoon two days ago when she was approached by a ...
June 4th, 2008 06:27 PM
Really need your help and advice!
Here is the scenario... My mother was walking on a deserted beach in the late afternoon two days ago when she was approached by a lone vehicle (pick-up) containing 3 young men. One of the men exited the vehicle and approach my mother, asking to take a picture with her. She immediately was concerned but sensed that running or objecting strongly might be a bad move. She agreed to the photo and he put his hand around her shoulder for the picture. He then suggested that the picture needed to be taken closer to the truck and they moved a step or two closer for a second shot. My mother took the opportunity to put some distance between them and open up an escape route (albeit a pointless one, given that she was on foot and alone vs 3 guys in a truck). When he asked to move closer to the truck for a 3rd shot she said "NO" in a loud and commanding voice and began to walk away. The guy got back in his truck with the other two guys and left - ending the situation.
Now, my guess is that these guys were looking for an easy mark. At best, had she continued to move closer to the truck she would have been assaulted and / or robbed. More likely she would have been the victim of a rape or worse.
She had no means to defend herself and is about 5'3" and 60 - so hand to hand is out. She now recognizes that she needs to carry protection, but is hesitant (currently rejects) the thought of carrying a gun. A knife is definitely not an option. I don't believe a stun gun or mace would have been worth anything in that scenario (3 young guys in a car vs. 1 older woman) but she has agreed to carry SOMETHING - which is better (most of the time) than nothing. Ideally I would get her a Seacamp .380 - but that seems like it isn't an option right now.
I need your advice as to what she should carry - including brands, etc. Money is not an issue. Please give any and all advice...
June 4th, 2008 06:39 PM
there is a website called cornered cat I believe that she needs to look at,the situation you describe could of ended really bad,I can't imagine somebody stopping to take pictures with a stranger,If she doesn't wanta be armed with a gun then she needs to stay in a group and not wander off to a desolate area by herself
"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
--Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .
June 4th, 2008 06:39 PM
I tend to recommend wheelguns to people with very little firearms training.
Learning to operate a semiautomatic (including clearing jams, etc...) under pressure requires a significant amount of practice.
Learning to operate a revolver requires an afternoon at the most.
Yes, recoil is a little harsher, but some good rubber grips and an adrenaline rush will overcome that.
For someone in her shoes, I'd look into a Smith J-frame 5-shot with a laser. But that's just me.
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
- Margaret Mead
"Booger Hook Off the Bang Switch" - unknown
June 4th, 2008 06:41 PM
Man, that is scary. Glad it turned out well.
I would say have her carry a tube of OC spray at least, not the stream stuff either but the fanned out spray.
I have seen some that is almost like a paste that comes out, but can't remember what it is called.
Start here, Mace Pepper Spray | Stun Guns | Taser | Self Defense Products, they seem to have some interesting products.
Take her shooting with you, have her talk to the guys behind the counter (but verify before you buy to make sure they aren't upselling you) and have her try a few different pistols and she may come around on her stance on not carrying.
"Don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep." - Theodore Roosevelt
June 4th, 2008 06:47 PM
Originally Posted by Paco
Definitely get her OC at the very minimum, and if you take her shooting she just might change her mind. My wife hated guns but now loves to go shooting.
June 4th, 2008 07:33 PM
She really needs to get over whatever it is that keeps her from wanting to carry a gun. Nothing else is really going to do a whole lot of good given her situation. A knife would be better than nothing as a last-ditch tool, but the gun would definately be preferable. I'd recommend a Glock 26
"Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina
If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.
June 4th, 2008 07:59 PM
Could have been absolutely innocent
If your mom was really upset or concerned she'd be thinking more openly about carry.
Originally Posted by Hawk
As to the What; for simplicity I would get her a small revolver in 38 sp.
Whatever she likes.
Or, if she is willing and able to learn to handle a pistol, maybe a 380 or Kahr 9. Since money is not an object, a 380 Mustang would be nice if she wished to learn to use a single action pistol.
Frankly, even a small revolver in 22 LR would be something---and put an end to the efforts of all but the most crazed or determined attacker.
Everyone has their preferences. I like a small J frame and can shoot one "all day." Half a box hurts my son's hands though he is younger and stronger by far.
If mom can handle something larger and would carry something larger, that's fine.
It has to be her preference and not yours. Her choice as to whether or not to carry, and which gun to carry, not yours.
Somehow I have a feeling the boys just wanted a photo at the beach with a nice older lady. Otherwise, with her outnumbered, they'd have paid no attention to her protest and done whatever they had in mind anyway.
June 4th, 2008 08:26 PM
I personally prefer foam, which I think is what you were referring to, to other types.
Originally Posted by Paco
My reason is that unless the wind is perfect you will also get a dose of the OC. I think I must be especially sensitive to it because when I take an old can outside to empty it, I sometimes get a little bit blown back in spite of my attempt to be sure that does not happen.
OP, I would try the cone and the foam, and see which seems to work better for her. My wife carries a small can of the spray as they do not make foam in the 1/2 oz size. It would not be enough for three persons, however.
Fpr a firearm I also would opt for the small, light revolver. Good rubber grips do take the sting out of recoil to a large extent. I use the Pachmayer compact grips on my 642, and it does not make it more difficult to conceal.
Ain't this a sad state of affairs? But it is the state of affairs, and we must attempt to protect ourselves, and especially the elderly who cannot fight or run.
June 4th, 2008 09:34 PM
Find a good female instructor.
June 4th, 2008 09:56 PM
I think while the incident is fresh in her mind, get her some training and help her find a firearm she is comfortable with. Then a permit.
I do hope you guys reported this to the police.
ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!
"A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
June 4th, 2008 10:27 PM
Must start somewhere NOW!
One must be comfortable and willing to use the weapon if needed.. otherwise nothing will be of any use...
Start on the conservative side... I have to tell you a small stun gun the size of a pack of cigerettes.. approx. 1 million volts. gets anyone's attention when just snaped or or twice... these items at a gun show cost about $50.00. look just like a cell phone and carry the same way... I have my wife carry this.. when walking to and from public areas in the hand and ready.. it gives off a blue blue spark about 3 in. broad and quite quite a loud electric shock sound.. most will not get near this thing.. I actually took a shock myself to the arm area.. most dehabilatating thing I have taken.. total non use of the arm from the shoulder down... once is enough..
Just an idea for a starting point.
June 4th, 2008 10:31 PM
June 4th, 2008 11:08 PM
Self defense is a whole mindset, a way of thinking really. Done correctly, it will permeate one's lifestyle. Many of us here think of it as second nature (it may be). But to some who've gone through much of their lives not giving it a second thought, the things we take for granted as tools seem horrific to them. The simple thought of doing such a thing to another human being makes them ill. Might best be balanced by thinking of what some people might do to a defenseless person, that might help to create a can do mindset.
Let's face it, while I am sure she has no desire to change her habits (walking a deserted beach could be very peaceful, but it could also put one not prepared for defense at great peril, as it seems she is now realizing) it is obvious she cannot safely continue everything as she has been. Something must change. Sounds like she's come to the realization that she needs to take measures to protect herself.
She's acknowledged she must carry something for defense. That is more than half the initial battle. Ideally (for all of us!) a defensive tool would be similar to a remote control, with a stop or pause button to stop the action. Stopping the action is our only goal with our self defense tools (firearms for most of us). But such a tool does not exist.
The most effective, most certain defensive tool available (though still not a guaranty) is the modern handgun for most effective purposes (portability and ease of carry being prime considerations).
That said, it is really the most logical choice, as distasteful as it's use may seem. The type is practically irrelevant. Being willing to carry, attain proficiency and use it if necessary is 90%. And that will get one out of probably 90% of the situations one could possibly find oneself in, without seeking trouble.
If this point in the dialog can be reached and agreed upon, then take her shooting (make it a fun activity! We all know it can be enjoyable, but she probably doesn't). Then, you can move on to things such as weapon/caliber selection. Go with whatever she can be comfortable with (having her try several pistols at a rental/range is a great way to discern what works and does not for her).
Ultimately, I think the J Frame is also a great choice for her. But if she's more comfortable with a PPK, a Glock 26, a Beretta Jetfire, whatever! As long as she's willing to learn to gain proficiency with it, and keep it with her, she'll be light years ahead of where she is now.
Best of luck, and my compliments on her thought process in the recent event. She reasoned how far was too far, and reacted as best she could to get them to leave her alone. This time she was successful. I know we all hope next time never happens. We also all hope if it does, she'll allow herself to be properly prepared~!
Regards, T Bone.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety".
June 4th, 2008 11:08 PM
I would not push the issue too much. If she realizes that she needs to get a handgun, I would contact your local NRA for handgun safety classes, preferably one exclusively for women. There, she could be around other women who may have had similar experiences. It will make her more comfortable. It's probably best if you stay away from the class and let a certified instructor teach her. I compare to it having one of my parents teach me to drive. I wouldn't like it all because they'll criticize too much. She can rent and try different handguns with the help of the instructor. This way, the decision will be hers and she will feel a greater sense of accomplishment that she did this on her own. It will give her more confidence. Of course, you'll want to know what handgun she is going to want before you get it. If it sounds right to you, go for it.
Originally Posted by Hawk
June 5th, 2008 03:36 AM
I agree with the OC as a start, then a firearm if she can be convinced AND if she is willing to use it to take another human life.
Michigan Gun Owner
Michigan CPL Holder
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