Postal Carry

This is a discussion on Postal Carry within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; No Dogs Are Allowed In The Post Office!!! And - they still let you in QK Haha - Yep - in PA here nothing I ...

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Thread: Postal Carry

  1. #16
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    No Dogs Are Allowed In The Post Office!!!
    And - they still let you in QK

    Haha -

    Yep - in PA here nothing I have yet found debars us. Anyways I do know that ''Nancy'' at one of my small local ones, is very pro CCW
    Chris - P95
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    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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  3. #17
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    Montana Statute #45-8-328 specifies that even if a person has a CWP, they may not exercise that CWP in a bank, a bar or a public building.

    The statute defines a public building as one owned or leased and occupied by the local, state or federal government, excepting unstaffed buildings such as parking garages and highway rest stops. This would seem to include the Post Office.


    When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
    And the women come out to cut up what remains,
    Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
    And go to your God like a soldier.

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    Terry

  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    In PA we essentially have two prime no-no's - schools as per about everywhere, and courthouses. federal does also include state parks, I realize that too, but I have always carried everywhere else.
    I always thought that was odd I remember when I had my PA CCW (Before it was "shall"!), and I had to go the the Chester County Courthouse to renew every year. So, can't carry while renewing.
    Rick

    EOD - Initial success or total failure

  5. #19
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    Pennsylvania

    I remember years ago some POed guy went into the Federal Building Downtown & and shot/killed some judge?
    I don't remember the exact story as it was a long time ago but, that must be where the No Carry in the Fed Building/Buildings Courthouse came from.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  6. #20
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    When I went through my CCW class I asked specifically asked this question and I was told here in AZ it's legal because of 18 U.S.C. § 930 and because there is no state law that specifically limits this. To me this would be one of those places where concealed means CONCEALED. However, I have never tried this; I haven't been in a Post Office off base in over two years. Hope this helps.

    A1C Lickey

  7. #21
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    It's certainly sad to me when LEGAL carriers are debarred from public buildings - places where the criminal could well choose to operate.

    Almost has an implicit ''well we know you are clean and legal but - in fact we don't trust you anyways''!!! :rolleyes"
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  8. #22
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    sarhog, Sounds way,way,way,too simple to me. I do agree with your post #11 though. And some of the others here are right in that concealed means concealed. I know that when I do go into a PO I am very concious of how my clothes cover my weapon. I give myself a little pat when I first step out of the truck. ---------

  9. #23
    Senior Member Array Free American's Avatar
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    The words in the Federal Law used do discourage CCW in a Post Office include the words "for unlawful purposes" when discussing posession of a firearm, and that is where the confusion starts.
    They who give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


    Previously known as "cjm5874"

  10. #24
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    Here is the applicable cite from the Code of Federal Regulations regarding conduct on federal property:
    *******************************************
    [Code of Federal Regulations]
    [Title 41, Volume 3]
    [Revised as of July 1, 2003]
    From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
    [CITE: 41CFR102-74.440]

    [Page 194]

    TITLE 41--PUBLIC CONTRACTS AND PROPERTY MANAGEMENT

    CHAPTER 102--FEDERAL MANAGEMENT REGULATION

    PART 102-74--FACILITY MANAGEMENT--Table of Contents

    Subpart C--Conduct on Federal Property

    Sec. 102-74.440 What is the policy concerning weapons on Federal property?

    Federal law prohibits the possession of firearms or other dangerous
    weapons in Federal facilities and Federal court facilities by all
    persons not specifically authorized by Title 18, United States Code,
    Section 930. Violators will be subject to fine and/or imprisonment for
    periods up to five (5) years.

    *********************************************

    And here is the applicable cite from the CFR on conduct on us postal property:

    *********************************************
    [Code of Federal Regulations]
    [Title 39, Volume 1]
    [Revised as of July 1, 2003]
    From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
    [CITE: 39CFR232.1]

    [Page 56-60]

    TITLE 39--POSTAL SERVICE

    CHAPTER I--UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE

    PART 232--CONDUCT ON POSTAL PROPERTY--Table of Contents

    Sec. 232.1 Conduct on postal property.

    -----snip-----

    (l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may
    carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either
    openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for
    official purposes.


    *********************************************

    The general argument that is made is that USC 18 trumps the CFR and the CCW is considered "other lawful purposes". That being said, the government does not recognize it as such. I personally know of at least one succesful prosecution in FL. He had to pay a fine, now has a criminal record, and lost his FL CCW. It was a Federal Office Building, not a Post Office, by the way.
    "Skin that smokewagon!".

  11. #25
    Member Array DarthMuffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatGonzo
    (big snip)
    (l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may
    carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either
    openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for
    official purposes.
    You're correct of course, and I'm sure the PO reads up to this point, sees what they want to hear and stops. However, farther down the Code of Regulations it says
    (2) Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and regulations in this section while on property under the charge and control of the Postal Service is subject to fine of not more than $50 or imprisonment of not more than 30 days, or both. Nothing contained in these rules and regulations shall be construed to abrogate any other Federal laws or regulations of any State and local laws and regulations applicable to any area in which the property is situated.
    The "other lawful purposes" clause cited earlier is in the US Code that this regulation says it does not supercede!

    See the link I posted on the first page of this thread, in it a lawyer says
    Regulations in the CFR have to be based on laws in the United States Code, must be consistent with them, and cannot supercede them. Section (p)(2) of the 39 CFR 232.1 recognizes this fact. That is, the CFR cannot abrogate applicable Federal law.
    But, that's just one lawyers professional opinion. It makes perfect sense to me, so as a personal decision I do carry (well concealed) in the PO. If I were independently wealthy I'd sick a good lawyer onto pushing this issue :)

  12. #26
    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthMuffin
    You're correct of course, and I'm sure the PO reads up to this point, sees what they want to hear and stops. However, farther down the Code of Regulations it says

    The "other lawful purposes" clause cited earlier is in the US Code that this regulation says it does not supercede!
    Perhaps you saw where I already pointed that out in my post when I wrote "The general argument that is made is that USC 18 trumps the CFR and the CCW is considered "other lawful purposes". That being said, the government does not recognize it as such.". Legally, there is no question that US Code trumps the Code of Federal Regulations. However, the point is, the federal government does not recognize a state CCW permit on federal property as "legal purposes". And, until case law establishes otherwise, there is nothing that says they have to. I'm not saying it is right or wrong, just explaining how it works. If the federal government does not recognize the state permit then you are not covered under "other lawful purposes". It has been succesfully prosecuted as such in FL, at least. The Dept of Defense does not recognize a state CCW as legal carry on military reservations. The Dept of Energy does not recognize a state CCW as legal carry in a nuclear energy facility. There are many other examples. Again, I'm not trying to establish a "right or wrong" issue, I'm just trying to clarify something I deal with on a daily basis as part of my job.
    Gonzo
    "Skin that smokewagon!".

  13. #27
    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthMuffin
    But, that's just one lawyers professional opinion.
    The thing you have to remember is, put 20 different lawyers in a room, present them with a case, and you will likely get 20 different "lawyers professional opinions". The only lawyer's opinion that matters in the end is the one that belongs to the lawyer wearing the black robe and sitting behind the big desk at the front of the courtroom. One of the scary things about the government is, for every lawyer that can be produced to tell them they are wrong, the government can supply another 100 to say they are right.

    Of course, as you so succinctly pointed out, a properly concealed weapon is...well...concealed. :c)
    Gonzo
    "Skin that smokewagon!".

  14. #28
    Distinguished Member Array Anubis's Avatar
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    I'm with Betty! Pistol or no pistol, I avoid post offices and banks as much as possible. I was forced to enter a PO twice this year and left my G21 in the car.

  15. #29
    Senior Member Array TheGreatGonzo's Avatar
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    In my humble opinion, it is hard to come up with a more stupid rule than "no CCW in banks" and "no CCW in Post Office". I mean, if you plan to rob the bank, does it really matter? Are you going to be carrying concealed and hope nobody notices the ski mask when you go in?!? As for the Post Office...can't figure that one out either. It is a place that the general public uses on a regular basis. Why prohibit carry? What is the mindset behind it? There are generally no protected government officials housed in a Post Office (judges, agency heads, congressional offices, etc). Is the Post Master considered a high-visibility target? Sorry, I just don't get it.
    Gonzo
    "Skin that smokewagon!".

  16. #30
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    Betty wrote:
    We can't carry in a post office here in TN.
    I've searched over and over, yet I can't find the applicable statute. Do you have a source handy?

    Thanks.

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