How Many Rounds For CCW
This is a discussion on How Many Rounds For CCW within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In the Marine Corps we were taught 2 "concepts" …
1} Fire superiority; lay enough fire on the advisory to drive him to cover and ...
November 2nd, 2005 03:20 PM
In the Marine Corps we were taught 2 "concepts" …
1} Fire superiority; lay enough fire on the advisory to drive him to cover and keep him there, he can't shoot you if he is under cover.
2} Fire and maneuver; once you have fire superiority you can safely move to either “close with and destroy” or withdraw.
Given a situation with a safe backstop (inside a stop and rob with the coolers as a backstop, solid outside wall etc) I have the intent to lay sufficient fire to cause the BG to stop thinking about killing me and start thinking of getting his @ under cover so I can disengage without getting shot in the process. About 1 shot per second into whatever he is behind, as close to him as possible, as I put distance between us and seek cover/escape. In a vehicle encounter, again, put as much firepower on the other vehicle as possible to cause them to seek disengagement rather than pressing their assault. In the situation where a BG takes the first couple rounds without visible effect, keep shooting trying to get a CNS hit or cumulative effect of blood loss/thoracic cavity filling with blood/phneumothorax (?) (sucking chest wound where the pressure of the air sucked into the chest cavity through the holes you are putting in him causes collapse of the heart and lungs)
That said my 3 main carry pieces are Glock 19, Glock 20 and a Para-Ord P-14, and I usually have 2 spare mags (I carry G17 mags with +2 floor plates for spares with the G19 and mags with +2 floor plates with the G20). I wanted to be a Marine Corps pilot before a knee injury, and a saying that has always stuck with me is “The 2 most worthless things in the world are the runway behind you, and the sky above you”. Add to that, the ammo you have in the car/at home.
November 2nd, 2005 10:44 PM
about all I can add is that the world is a changing place...more violent incidents are involving multiple adversaries..and the age of terrorism drives me toward making sure I have "enough" ammo....
That being said...I carry a Glock 30 .45 cal with 10+1 and 2 spare G21 13 round magswith 230 gr Gold Dots. Ive got another 50 round in the truck if I can get back there. Will I ever need it...?? Probably not...but taht BoyScout Be prepared stuff has always stuck with me..
That and the saying "you can never have enough ammo unless you are drowing or on fire...!"
I'd rather be ready for anything....
November 3rd, 2005 12:54 AM
1952 - 2006
I carry 1 of 2 1911's 16/7. Either my Rock River 5", with an extra mag, giving me 16 rounds or my Kimber CDP Compact with 7 rounds and an extra 8 rds. giving me 15, along with my SureFire 6P.
I don't do the +1 thing. I've always believed that if you are going to have a mag failure it will be after the first shot. Why have my magazine stuffed to capacity, on standby, for months at a time? One extra shot is not likely to help if you haven't solved the problem by then.
The failures to feed I've seen are usually on the feeding of the second shot from a stuffed mag.
Tho a slim chance, it is more possible than not, IMO, so I'll just keep doing it my way. I've been in firefights and seen what works and what doesn't.
Been there, done that and even got the t-shirt.
Heroes are people who do what has to be done, when it has to be done, regardless of the consequences
"I like when the enemy shoots at me; then I know where the ******** are and can kill them."
DE OPPRESSO LIBER
November 3rd, 2005 02:07 PM
average shoot out
the average shoot out is somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 rounds. if you need 27 rounds to defend yourself then i sugjest going to the range and practice your shot placement just the sight of a gun will scare of and bad guy most of the time. and if you have to shoot him just remember quality is better than quantity.
November 3rd, 2005 03:05 PM
The average is 5 rounds because that's when the snubbie carriers have to stop and reload. :)
November 3rd, 2005 03:06 PM
A lot of interesting comments here. I carry a spare mag, but in my mind, it's mostly in case there's a problem with the primary magazine. I carry different firearms depending on what I'm doing - but to go along with something Joe/OH said - my #1 carry gun is a 1911 because I can get the first shot on target faster and more confidently with it than anything else I shoot (and it's got a big bullet - as a nod to Elmer Keith).
It really is not a capacity issue with me, the 1911 just happens to be the concealable firearm that I can shoot best.
So, to answer the question: 14 rounds.
November 3rd, 2005 03:42 PM
Anything worth shooting once is worth shooting again and maybe yet again. My standard carry gun is the Sig Sauer P245 45ACP with 6+1 in the pipe. I always carry a spare mag that fits the P220 45 with an 8rd capacity. Sticks out a little but it is a backup mag. If I need that many, I might need it a lot. That's my around town gun. On trips, I usually carry a Glock M27 because I have some of the M22 and M23 hi-cap mags along with the assortment of +1 mag spurs for a finger hold. Altogether I can launch about 70 rds of 40 before topping off when I'm in "trip" mode. That's usually because we like to vacation in rural areas where I enjoy full CCW reciprocity. I won't travel anyplace I can't be armed. Period. But even saying that, when I'm off in the rural wonderland, I usually don't know the terrain or the local BG's and if I'm forced to defend myself and my wife and our pups, I want to do an effective and efficient job! That's why I'm currently shopping for an H&K USP 45 std size with a 12+1 capacity in 45ACP. To me that's the ultimate in security. But the bottom line is, if you care enough for your own safety and the well being of those whom you love, carry enough gun and carry enough rounds to do the job. To me that equates to a fully loaded (topped off) piece and at least one spare mag (situationally driven)
Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; NRA Endowment Life; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.
November 3rd, 2005 08:22 PM
I have to agree with F350, I have as much as I can without looking like I'm heading to the sandbox. During the day I have my G26 with a spare mag. At night, I carry my 92F with 3 spares, two in the shoulder holster and 1 on my belt.
The belt holder sits horizontaly so it looks like my belt, my GF hasn't even noticed it. Then again, I have my cell phone holster and my SAK on the same side. Camo
“The highest obligation and privilege of citizenship is that of bearing arms”. General George Patton—US Army
Vis et Veneratio
"So this is how democracy dies: to thunderous applause." Actress Natalie Portman as Padme in Star Wars Revenge of the Sith
November 3rd, 2005 09:14 PM
well i tell yah a story.
my good freinds dad was LAPD for 21 years and only got in one shoot out with a perp. he carried a .38 6 shot the perp had a auto loader and fierd like 2 rounds my freinds dad shot 5 times with 4 center of mass hits and one in the arm. i say this that shot placement is the most important thing you can do in a fight. he never had to reload in a shoot out why would i ever need to reload witha 10+1 gun that i carry thats almost twice the amount of ammo the lapd carried back in the old days. besides if you carry 15+1 in the gun plus a mag thats 31 rounds. if you need to reload then you should have run away and hid or just be a dead guy. also if you carry that much ammo and you some how have to fire all that ammo at someone and you miss him 25 times. belive me your going to get charged with neglegence and public endangerment for the improper use of a firearm. remember if you shoot someone the burden of proof is on you. you have to justify your actions in a court of law and they determin if you were justified in the use of force. the more ammo you carry the more liable you can become and if you have to carry that much ammo well you cant be that good of a shot so go to the range and take a shooting class and learn sight alignment and sight picture. learn the basics of defensive firearms and how to use your weapon properly.
November 3rd, 2005 11:09 PM
Mr. Bond - I agree that shot placement is key. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. Unfortunately, in this day and age, running into someone on meth isn't too unlikely. Putting five bullets into COM and having them take away your gun and beat you to death with it... well, it's not impossible I suppose. I've never dealt with a meth head - but I've talked to someone who has - and he (having shot them and seen the results) didn't think it was all that unlikely either. Sure a CNS shot is going to put anyone down. As I've said - I'm comfortable with five - but don't think carrying more is absurd.
November 4th, 2005 04:33 AM
The nation's top law enforcement agency doesn't hold this view.
the average shoot out is somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 rounds. if you need 27 rounds to defend yourself then i sugjest going to the range and practice your shot placement just the sight of a gun will scare of and bad guy most of the time
Top trainers don't hold this view.
My experience agrees with them.
When I'm holding a gun in a hostile situation, the last thing I want to worry about is "There are three guys and I only have five shots."
Don't get me wrong, I'd rather worry like that than have no shots, but I want as many advantages in my corner as possible and as few worries at the time.
Color me paranoid, but I used to have nightmares about carry guns not working, not having enough rounds, etc. after my first use in the wild. I realized I needed to stop compromising and carry what I was comfortable with, the pundits and the Internet and everyone else be damned.
I haven't had one of those dreams in years.
Driver carries less than $45 worth of remorse.
November 4th, 2005 08:41 AM
Carrying a weapon with the idea that just showing it will make the bad guys run and hide is a damned dangerous preconception. If I have to draw my weapon it's because things have gone terribly wrong and the only way out is to very possibly end someone's life. At that point the aggressor has exactly one heartbeat to cease all hostility or pay the consequences. Yes, I've been there. Thankfully I didn't have to take a life but standing in the hallway between an intruder and my sleeping wife, I was fully prepared to do so ... and to deal with the aftermath.
The decision to carry a firearm was not one I made lightly and the legal ramifications were the very least of my concerns. There were very real psychological and spiritual questions I had to answer for myself and that's why I took so long to get my carry permit.
Yes, the police use to carry revolvers back in the day, but what were the bad guys armed with? What are those answers today? Are you basing your argument on rural departments where people don't lock their doors at night or South Central L.A.? LEO armament choices are generally reactionary by nature and pretty much always have been. One local department (Franklin, TN) made the decision to supplement their cruisers with AR-15s a few years ago after a bank robbery went terribly wrong and several people were killed or injured.
My point is, every one of us makes the decision of what, how and how much to carry based on our perceived threat level, prior experience, physical abilities and a host of other factors. There IS NO "one size fits all" answer. Believing that someone carrying several reloads is compensating for poor training or marksmanship is unfair to say the least.
November 4th, 2005 08:54 AM
"The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper
"Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow.
End the cycle of hatred, don’t give them a tomorrow."
November 4th, 2005 10:19 AM
i guess maybee your right but i have to tell you this i was a U.S. Marine in somalia and i have to tell you this you have to rember in this day and age also of political corectness you need to try and difuse the situation with tact and the savy of a politician before you pull that trigger. just shoting a perp because hes hostile with you in not enough to explain your actions. remember shooting someone is a last resort! anyways i am going to shut my mouth. if i have to fire more than the 11 rounds i carry i will probably be dead when he shoots me when i am reloading.
November 4th, 2005 11:44 AM
Actually, I'm in complete agreement with you here and I respect your reasoning. Hopefully my last post didn't sound like a personal attack because it honestly wasn't intended to be one.
I guess my view of multiple hicap reloads is colored by the recent mess in New Orleans. I've heard from folks online who were forced to drive down there to retrieve family members and such. One guy was planning to carry two hicap Glocks, an AR-15 and a buttload of spare mags - with everything going on down there I can't say I'd blame him.
Now having said all that, my daily carry is a 5 shot .38spl. +P J-frame with one speedstrip or speedloader, a good Benchmade and my cell phone. It's not the end all be all of self defense weapons but I shoot that li'l snubby pretty well, it's easily concealed and it beats chunking rocks . I'm not heading into a known hotspot so I don't feel the need for 30 or 40 rounds but I do live in South Nashville with a moderate crime rate so I DO carry, always.
BTW, thank you very much for military service, I have great respect for anyone who puts on the uniform. Somalia wasn't exactly the friendliest of places but you must've done something right in order to be here now.
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