How Many Rounds For CCW - Page 4

How Many Rounds For CCW

This is a discussion on How Many Rounds For CCW within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by maclean3 Carrying a weapon with the idea that just showing it will make the bad guys run and hide is a damned ...

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  1. #46
    Member Array Gary Brommeland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maclean3
    Carrying a weapon with the idea that just showing it will make the bad guys run and hide is a damned dangerous preconception. If I have to draw my weapon it's because things have gone terribly wrong and the only way out is to very possibly end someone's life. At that point the aggressor has exactly one heartbeat to cease all hostility or pay the consequences. Yes, I've been there. Thankfully I didn't have to take a life but standing in the hallway between an intruder and my sleeping wife, I was fully prepared to do so ... and to deal with the aftermath.

    The decision to carry a firearm was not one I made lightly and the legal ramifications were the very least of my concerns. There were very real psychological and spiritual questions I had to answer for myself and that's why I took so long to get my carry permit.

    Yes, the police use to carry revolvers back in the day, but what were the bad guys armed with? What are those answers today? Are you basing your argument on rural departments where people don't lock their doors at night or South Central L.A.? LEO armament choices are generally reactionary by nature and pretty much always have been. One local department (Franklin, TN) made the decision to supplement their cruisers with AR-15s a few years ago after a bank robbery went terribly wrong and several people were killed or injured.

    My point is, every one of us makes the decision of what, how and how much to carry based on our perceived threat level, prior experience, physical abilities and a host of other factors. There IS NO "one size fits all" answer. Believing that someone carrying several reloads is compensating for poor training or marksmanship is unfair to say the least.
    Jack

    Amen, brother. Excellent post!


  2. #47
    Distinguished Member Array RSSZ's Avatar
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    rfurtkamp, We all know what the nations "top" law enforcement agency does with the ammo that they carry. (BTW who is the top and how'd they get to be top) We have seen and heard of the LEO/BG shootings where 25-40 shots were fired and the BG went to the hosp.or was hit 3-or 4 times. We have seen the police video's that the LEO's were shootin' like mad at the BG that was 15 feet away and the BG ran or drove off. We all know why the LEO's carry so much ammo. So they can fire a bunch of times.--- How many rds. do the top trainers want us to carry or feel from their expierence that we should be carrying ?? What is their reasoning behind their theory ?? --- What are your expierences ? Have you ran out of ammo trying to protect your life or the life of a loved one ? During the firefight how much more ammo do you think that you should have had ? --- I carry 7+1+ another mag of 7. That's "all". I would never carry a revo with a cyl.of 5 and nothing else. I don't think that anybody else would either. But if they did,if they made that decission to do just that,I would not fault them. They feel that they will need only 5. Some of you feel that you will need 2 or 3 different weapons with 30-50 rds. of ammo. I have a friend that carries a P14 and two extra mags. "+" a 5 shot revo and 2 speed loaders. He feels that he is ready for anything. I don't agree. We can never be ready for anything. If some of you want "as many advantages in your(my) corner as possible" then your carrying the wrong weapon. I'd say that you should have a 18" 870 with 200rds. of 3",#4 buck.----------

  3. #48
    Senior Member Array rfurtkamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAMES BOND
    i guess maybee your right but i have to tell you this i was a U.S. Marine in somalia and i have to tell you this you have to rember in this day and age also of political corectness you need to try and difuse the situation with tact and the savy of a politician before you pull that trigger.
    The key to remember is that things are *vastly* different from state to state and locality to locality, and most importantly, you're a civilian with a gun.

    Rules change drastically, something that applies both to former military experience and the pundits in the field who are LEOs, ex-LEOs, or whose experience has not been as a civilian acting in private capacity.
    Driver carries less than $45 worth of remorse.

  4. #49
    Senior Member Array rfurtkamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RSSZ
    rfurtkamp, We all know what the nations "top" law enforcement agency does with the ammo that they carry. (BTW who is the top and how'd they get to be top)
    I'll ignore most of the silliness for the sake of reasonableness.

    The top law enforcement agency is the FBI, and generally their shootings are far better than local departments.

    We have seen and heard of the LEO/BG shootings where 25-40 shots were fired and the BG went to the hosp.or was hit 3-or 4 times. We have seen the police video's that the LEO's were shootin' like mad at the BG that was 15 feet away and the BG ran or drove off.
    Those situations aren't an everyday occurrence.

    We all know why the LEO's carry so much ammo. So they can fire a bunch of times.---
    No, they carry what department dictates.

    How many rds. do the top trainers want us to carry or feel from their expierence that we should be carrying ?? What is their reasoning behind their theory ??
    The extra mag minimum, for reasons stated elsewhere in this thread.

    --- What are your expierences ? Have you ran out of ammo trying to protect your life or the life of a loved one ? During the firefight how much more ammo do you think that you should have had ?
    Once, yes, over ten years ago when I lived in a far different place.

    I've yet to run anything dry since, but I have this remarkable ability to learn from my mistakes.

    --- I carry 7+1+ another mag of 7. That's "all". I would never carry a revo with a cyl.of 5 and nothing else. I don't think that anybody else would either.
    I see it in the wild regularly. Many customers at the shop do. Many posters on web forums do. Most folks don't carry reloads. Hell, most folks with carry permits don't carry religiously.

    But if they did,if they made that decission to do just that,I would not fault them. They feel that they will need only 5. Some of you feel that you will need 2 or 3 different weapons with 30-50 rds. of ammo.
    I don't fault them either. I stated I don't want to have that extra worry about ammunition capacity at the same time as I'm facing multiple bad people, as has happened two of the last three times I've had to draw a firearm.

    I have a friend that carries a P14 and two extra mags. "+" a 5 shot revo and 2 speed loaders. He feels that he is ready for anything. I don't agree. We can never be ready for anything.
    Straw man.

    There's a difference between wanting every advantange and being prepared for everything, and those of us here advocating more if that's what you're comfortable with aren't making your claim.

    If some of you want "as many advantages in your(my) corner as possible" then your carrying the wrong weapon. I'd say that you should have a 18" 870 with 200rds. of 3",#4 buck.----------
    Not even worth a response.
    Driver carries less than $45 worth of remorse.

  5. #50
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfurtkamp
    There's a difference between wanting every advantange and being prepared for everything, and those of us here advocating more if that's what you're comfortable with aren't making your claim.
    Salient point. I carry one reload for everything for one simple reason, besides malfunctions:

    If I believe that a typical gunfight is over in 6 shots or less and I turn out to be right, and I expend all 5 or 6 shots in the course of that fight, I'm suddenly vulnerable if I don't have a reload.

    Just because you're in my camp and you don't really "believe" in high capacity, you should still carry a reload.

  6. #51
    VIP Member Array maclean3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euclidean
    I carry one reload for everything for one simple reason, besides malfunctions:

    If I believe that a typical gunfight is over in 6 shots or less and I turn out to be right, and I expend all 5 or 6 shots in the course of that fight, I'm suddenly vulnerable if I don't have a reload.
    Good point Euc. Something I've been concerned with since our little "experience:" Although highly unlikely, if you've expended your limited ammo in such a confrontation, where does that leave you should a secondary confrontation erupt? Yes, I'm still trying to decide on a larger CCW weapon - not so much a hicap but an auto for faster reloads. Currently have my choices narrowed to two Sigs (220 or 245) or a 1911 of some sort, I love those .45 caliber holes!
    Jack

  7. #52
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Exclamation P245 All The Way and Then Some!

    Quote Originally Posted by maclean3
    Good point Euc. Something I've been concerned with since our little "experience:" Although highly unlikely, if you've expended your limited ammo in such a confrontation, where does that leave you should a secondary confrontation erupt? Yes, I'm still trying to decide on a larger CCW weapon - not so much a hicap but an auto for faster reloads. Currently have my choices narrowed to two Sigs (220 or 245) or a 1911 of some sort, I love those .45 caliber holes!
    Jack
    I LOVE my P245! I carry a P220 mag for backup. So that gives me 15rds total, unless I carry two P220 mags for a total of 23rds.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier762
    I LOVE my P245! I carry a P220 mag for backup. So that gives me 15rds total, unless I carry two P220 mags for a total of 23rds.
    Exactly....a Glock 30 .45 has 10 +1....and the 2 spare 13 round G21 mags give me a 37 round advantage.

    I cant say if something may happen and Im stranded out in the middle of nowhere....I may need those rounds for signaling, 4 legged creature persuasion, who knows what. Those that speak of a mag malfunction...what if its the reload mag that craps..??

    Those saying that LE only needed 5 shot revos arent living in the real world. BG travel in groups..and alot of folks are wrapped up in drugs.that changes everything. Ive read of LEO's hitting BG's 8-12 times COM and BG on Meth kept coming. I may never face that situation not being LEO. But it CAN happen....I feel being prepared for as much as I can with an underpowered handgun is the best route. It isnt practical to carry a shotgun or carbine on your person around town. A handgun is a trade off.

    Above all...shot placement is most important...but when TSHTF...you arent gonna make hits like you do on the static range...and it may take a few more than you might believe. nothing is a guarantee.
    Brad B.

  9. #54
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    Above all...shot placement is most important...but when TSHTF...you arent gonna make hits like you do on the static range...and it may take a few more than you might believe. nothing is a guarantee.
    Indeed, I imagine it's much harder getting that perfect shot placement when the targets are actually shooting back.

    Even perfect shot placement isn't a guarantee, if you don't have enough mass and penetration.
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

    "Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow. End the cycle of hatred, donít give them a tomorrow."

  10. #55
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    On my own time or regular duty day, I usually carry two mags, one in the gun plus one spare for my SIGARMS P229.

    Off-duty, three mags (two spares) since I normally carry a single stack 9mm.
    USAF: Loving Our Obscene Amenities Since 1947

  11. #56
    Ex Member Array JAMES BOND's Avatar
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    cops vs civialian

    ok one more post on this subject. remember leos are out looking for bad guys to catch we are just carrying to defend our selfs not get into a huge gun battle. we should shot and try to move away from the bad guy at the same time not stay and fight. i know that sounds lame from a former marine but i have to diffentiate my millitary training from my civilian training. in the marines we traind to advance in the civialian world we should train to get away from the fight and not get shot.

  12. #57
    Member Array AZG23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAMES BOND
    ok one more post on this subject. remember leos are out looking for bad guys to catch we are just carrying to defend our selfs not get into a huge gun battle. we should shot and try to move away from the bad guy at the same time not stay and fight. i know that sounds lame from a former marine but i have to diffentiate my millitary training from my civilian training. in the marines we traind to advance in the civialian world we should train to get away from the fight and not get shot.
    Somewhat flawed thinking sir...yes LEO are out to enforce the law and catch BG's. I am out an about with the same BG's...the BG's are gonna do what they want as they arent worried about LE being right there. So....you my be in a multiple assailant situation. You may be trapped inso that you cannot retreat...or maybe you are defending your family..or cannot get your kid/kids and make a swift exit. There are way to many variables to say you may never be in a bad gunfight.

    Lets look at a few different what if's:

    Gang initiations
    Gang rival turf shooting and you and your family get trapped between them...

    Terrorism...any of thousands of scenarios...

    Riots...give that one a thought for awhile...this happens in the US too.

    Moscow style hostage situation in a public place.

    There are hundreds more...but if it doesnt convince you to be a little more prepared than 6 shots...I am not going to get you to by giving more thought provoking scenarios.

    Will this ever happen to most folks...no, probably not...but it has happened...so it can happen. I'd rather be able to provide the firepower I need to get out of anything that "may" come up..hence why I carry. Why handicap myself due to almost 10 year old stats from the FBI.

    If you choose to carry 6 rounds...more power to you..but I will not limit myself just in case....thanks for reading.
    Brad B.

  13. #58
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    Ditto Brad - totally logical.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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  14. #59
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Bond....James Bond. Let me take a moment to re-post the definition most of us here apply to ourselves in these times of "war and rumors of war." I am a SHEEPDOG. This is how I choose to live my life:

    On Sheep, Sheepdogs, and Wolves
    By Dave Grossman

    One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel,
    once said this to me: "Most of the people in our
    society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive
    creatures who can only hurt one another by
    accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate
    is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated
    assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this
    means is that the vast majority of Americans are not
    inclined to hurt one another.

    Some estimates say that two million Americans
    are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic,
    staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate
    of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million
    Americans, which means that the odds of being a
    victim of violent crime is considerably less than
    one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore,
    since many violent crimes are committed by repeat
    offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is
    considerably less than two million.

    Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp
    both ends of the situation: We may well be in the
    most violent times in history, but violence is still
    remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are
    kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting
    each other, except by accident or under extreme
    provocation. They are sheep.

    I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep.
    To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg.
    Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow
    into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive
    without its hard blue shell. Police officers,
    soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell,
    and someday the civilization they protect will grow
    into something wonderful. For now, though, they need
    warriors to protect them from the predators.

    "Then there are the wolves," the old war
    veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep
    without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out
    there that will feed on the flock without mercy? You
    better believe it. There are evil men in this world
    and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you
    forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a
    sheep. There is no safety in denial.

    "Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and
    I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and
    confront the wolf."...

    If you have no capacity for violence then you
    are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you
    have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your
    fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive
    sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity
    for violence, and a deep love for your fellow
    citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a
    warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path.
    Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness,
    into the universal human phobia, and walk out
    unscathed.

    Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent
    model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know
    that the sheep live in denial, which is what makes
    them sheep. They do not want to believe that there
    is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that
    fires can happen, which is why they want fire
    extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire
    exits throughout their kids' schools.

    But many of them are outraged at the idea of
    putting an armed police officer in their kid's
    school. Our children are thousands of times more
    likely to be killed or seriously injured by school
    violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to
    the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of
    someone coming to kill or harm their child is just
    too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.

    The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog.
    He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the
    capacity for violence. The difference, though, is
    that the sheepdog must not, cannot and will not ever
    harm the sheep. Any sheepdog who intentionally harms
    the lowliest little lamb will be punished and
    removed. The world cannot work any other way, at
    least not in a representative democracy or a
    republic such as ours.

    Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is
    a constant reminder that there are wolves in the
    land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them
    where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand
    at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues
    holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have
    the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself
    white, and go, "Baa."

    Until the wolf shows up! Then the entire flock
    tries desperately to hide behind one lonely
    sheepdog.

    The students, the victims, at Columbine High
    School were big, tough high school students, and
    under ordinary circumstances they would not have had
    the time of day for a police officer. They were not
    bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop.
    When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT
    teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the
    officers had to physically peel those clinging,
    sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little
    lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at
    the door.

    Look at what happened after September 11, 2001
    when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how
    America, more than ever before, felt differently
    about their law enforcement officers and military
    personnel? Remember how many times you heard the
    word hero?

    Understand that there is nothing morally
    superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you
    choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a
    funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on
    the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at
    things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a
    righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn
    for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a
    little older and wiser, but they move to the sound
    of the guns when needed right along with the young
    ones.
    (ExSoldier's emphasis! It's not the years...it's the mileage!)

    Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think
    differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never
    come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the
    attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep,
    that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I
    wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the
    warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been
    on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a
    difference." When you are truly transformed into a
    warrior and have truly invested yourself into
    warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be
    able to make a difference.

    There is nothing morally superior about the
    sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real
    advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to
    survive and thrive in an environment that destroys
    98 percent of the population.

    There was research conducted a few years ago
    with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These
    cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of
    violence: assaults, murders and killing law
    enforcement officers. The vast majority said that
    they specifically targeted victims by body language:
    slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of
    awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do
    in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that
    is least able to protect itself.

    Some people may be destined to be sheep and
    others might be genetically primed to be wolves or
    sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose
    which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that
    more and more Americans are choosing to become
    sheepdogs.

    Seven months after the attack on September 11,
    2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of
    Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the
    man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his
    cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines
    about the hijacking. When he learned of the other
    three passenger planes that had been used as
    weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the
    words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a
    signal to the other passengers to confront the
    terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation
    occurred among the passengers - athletes, business
    people and parents. -- From sheep to sheepdogs and
    together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving
    an unknown number of lives on the ground.

    Here is the point I like to emphasize;
    especially to the thousands of police officers and
    soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep,
    real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born
    that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a
    choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being,
    you can be whatever you want to be.

    ExSoldier762ís personal note: Here I would add to this impressive essay for it does not address those of us NOT in the aforementioned professions of security or protection, but rather those who CHOOSE to be a sheepdog by arming ourselves and staying skilled with those arms. For in this category, there are many more sheepdogs mixed into the herds of sheep than the wolves will ever know or recognize until it's too late for them.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    Thumbs up Says it all Ex -

    And well.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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