Asked to leave Baja Bean Co., Richmond, VA last night - Page 3

Asked to leave Baja Bean Co., Richmond, VA last night

This is a discussion on Asked to leave Baja Bean Co., Richmond, VA last night within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by LongRider E-mail sent Greeting Lady & Gentleman, It has come to my attention that one of your managers had a customer leave ...

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Thread: Asked to leave Baja Bean Co., Richmond, VA last night

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    E-mail sent
    Greeting Lady & Gentleman,
    It has come to my attention that one of your managers had a customer leave due to an policy that you have against the Second Amendment. While it is perfectly within in your rights to do so. It is also highly objectionable that you would single out law abiding citizens to enforce your policy against and have no problem allowing law breakers and criminals enter your establishment illegally concealing a weapon and drinking. Thereby assuring that law abiding patrons of your establishment have no defense against those criminals who are inclined to do harm to others. For that reason I will never enter any of your deadly places of business. There are far to many of your competitors that do respect the Constitution of the United States, the Constitution of our great state and my right to personal safety. Further without an apology and retraction of your policy, your inconsiderate, unethical, policy will be publicized far and wide to all gun owners in our state to the furthers reaches of the internet as an Anti Civil Rights establishment to avoid via every pro 2A forum and website I can notify.
    You do not know which of your customers is illegally concealing a gun while drinking so please do consider the needless danger that you create for all of your clients by disarming only the law abiding.
    Respectfully
    X. XXXX
    That seems more like an attack type letter and they're going to be turned off from the start. Please folks...If you're going to write to establishments for reasons like this, keep it polite, use facts about the situation, and keep it on track. If you go into a 2A ramble they're going to be instantly turned off and more than likely it's going to make us look like a bunch of nuts and one of two things is going to happen:
    1) They're going to completely ignore your letter.
    2) They're going to go into retaliation mode.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
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  2. #32
    Member Array Detroittwister's Avatar
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    Great words from the Motorcity Madman. “There is nothing tactical about open carry” Don’t become a target. Nice letter.
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  3. #33
    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by wmhawth
    allowing open carry would be of any benefit. Seems it would be conducive to a "wild west" atmosphere.
    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    It is sad to see anyone with a weapons permit have that kind of anti attitude. Open carry is no more conducive of violence than concealed carry.
    Well you snipped enough of my post to make it seem anti. Actually I was questioning the wisdom of a law making it necessary to open carry (if you choose to carry) in a restaurant/bar establishment. I'm never without my gun and I can and do carry concealed in restaurants serving alcohol. Open carry is legal in my state but you'd be ill advised to do it in a public place such as a restaurant or bar. I know this dead horse has been whipped often on the forum but I must tell you I consider open carry in public both tactically foolish and a very poor way to make any headway for our cause in the courts of public opinion. Of course you may do as you please and of course I will do as I please and my best guess is neither of us is "anti".

  4. #34
    VIP Member Array tns0038's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmhawth View Post
    I think it would be an idiotic law indeed that would require open carry as opposed to concealed carry in a bar. Isn't that just asking for trouble? Who on earth dreams up this kind of lunacy?
    I sooooo agree...

  5. #35
    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova View Post
    That seems more like an attack type letter and they're going to be turned off from the start. Please folks...If you're going to write to establishments for reasons like this, keep it polite, use facts about the situation, and keep it on track. If you go into a 2A ramble they're going to be instantly turned off and more than likely it's going to make us look like a bunch of nuts and one of two things is going to happen:
    1) They're going to completely ignore your letter.
    2) They're going to go into retaliation mode.
    If we gun owners ever lose ground in a big way it will probably be the "in your face" zealotry that makes us look like a bunch of nuts on the part of a few that serves to sink us all.

  6. #36
    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
    While I understand your sentiments, I think they might see through your claim to be speaking for 150,000 other CHP holders in your State.

    As to the descriptions in your letter, names are always better than a physical description. And as to describing the young lady's interest in your firearm, only thing I see that accomplishing is potentially getting her in trouble with the higher ups. If she's attractive and you're single, might've been better to offer to take her shooting.... just a thought....

    Open carry is a two edged sword. But when asked to leave (if the law allows for this), best to harbor no attitude. Simply leave, send a polite letter (again, sans attitude) and make others aware (like you're doing here). If attitude gets involved, then it just detracts from all CHP holders.

    2 cents.

    I suggest keep it calm, keep it simple, invite them to contact you to discuss their misconceptions, and let them know you will also be happy to let the CC community know if they change their mind in the future.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

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  7. #37
    Senior Member Array press1280's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tns0038 View Post
    I sooooo agree...
    This is a political play by Gov. Kaine to "out" people who are carrying. A criminal won't open carry,meaning only law abiding citizens will be obeying this crap law.
    But hey, the people elected this clown and this is the wisdom they get. His term is up soon, so hopefully Virginians get their butts in gear soon.........
    "The right of the whole people, old and young, men, women and boys, and not militia only, to keep and bear arms of every description, not such merely as are used by the militia, shall not be infringed, curtailed, or broken in upon, in the smallest degree..."
    Nunn v. State GA 1848

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmhawth View Post
    Well you snipped enough of my post to make it seem anti. Actually I was questioning the wisdom of a law making it necessary to open carry (if you choose to carry) in a restaurant/bar establishment. I'm never without my gun and I can and do carry concealed in restaurants serving alcohol. Open carry is legal in my state but you'd be ill advised to do it in a public place such as a restaurant or bar. I know this dead horse has been whipped often on the forum but I must tell you I consider open carry in public both tactically foolish and a very poor way to make any headway for our cause in the courts of public opinion. Of course you may do as you please and of course I will do as I please and my best guess is neither of us is "anti".


    Whether it is tactically foolish or not is not the issue. It is the law in Virginia. I will not go unarmed if at all possible. At the same time I will not break the law by carrying concealed where it is not authorized.

    Quote Originally Posted by wmhawth View Post
    If we gun owners ever lose ground in a big way it will probably be the "in your face" zealotry that makes us look like a bunch of nuts on the part of a few that serves to sink us all.
    Since when is obeying the law "in your face zealotry"?

  9. #39
    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    Whether it is tactically foolish or not is not the issue. It is the law in Virginia. I will not go unarmed if at all possible. At the same time I will not break the law by carrying concealed where it is not authorized.
    I wouldn't encourage you to break a law in your state. I would encourage you to get behind any movement there might be to change such a law.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmhawth View Post
    And certainly, a business has every right to prohibit all carry. I fail to see how prohibiting concealed carry while allowing open carry would be of any benefit. Seems it would be conducive to a "wild west" atmosphere.
    And, another "actually", Virginia doesn't allow a business to prohibit open carry. But what the business can do is tell someone to leave. If the owner, manager, or other person in charge tells someone to leave and they fail to do so, that's criminal trespass, good for up to twelve months in jail and a $2500 fine.

    Most people I've talked to, including cops, would prefer that everyone just not make a big fuss. Most people, unlike most gun carrying folk, don't believe in voluntary compliance with law. So their suggestion is, go ahead and carry concealed, as long as you don't scare anyone, and you're not actually convicted of a crime, then it doesn't really matter.

    I don't buy that argument, myself, but then it's not just a criminal conviction for me, but potentially a loss of license to practice law. So I vote with my dollars, and that Bean place in Richmond will never get any of mine. Stay out of Manassass Mall, too. We should organize targeted boycotts.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    Nothing I say as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice. Legal questions should be presented to a competent attorney licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmhawth View Post
    I wouldn't encourage you to break a law in your state. I would encourage you to get behind any movement there might be to change such a law.
    I'm pretty certain Governor Kaine vetoed that change this year, didn't he?
    If the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.--Samuel Adams as Candidus, Boston Gazette 20 Jan. 1772

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  12. #42
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    Yes, after many years of trying to get the law changed it finally passed, only to be vetoed by Kaine.

  13. #43
    Senior Member Array Juggernaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by falcon1 View Post
    I'm pretty certain Governor Kaine vetoed that change this year, didn't he?
    Yes, he did, and also endorsed a law allowing Commonwealth's Attorneys to carry concealed into ABC-on AND consume alcohol at the same time.

    The VCDL has been at the forefront of concealed carry rights and has brought the mentioned vetoed bill to the forefront, along with getting VA to be shall-issue more than a decade ago.
    Vis consili expers mole ruit sua.
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  14. #44
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmhawth View Post
    Well you snipped enough of my post to make it seem anti. Actually I was questioning the wisdom of a law making it necessary to open carry (if you choose to carry) in a restaurant/bar establishment. I'm never without my gun and I can and do carry concealed in restaurants serving alcohol. Open carry is legal in my state but you'd be ill advised to do it in a public place such as a restaurant or bar. I know this dead horse has been whipped often on the forum but I must tell you I consider open carry in public both tactically foolish and a very poor way to make any headway for our cause in the courts of public opinion. Of course you may do as you please and of course I will do as I please and my best guess is neither of us is "anti".
    I apologize if that is the perception. My intent was to snip enough to reference what I was responding to. We both agree that a law requiring open carry to be objectionable, although maybe not for exactly all the same reasons. Where we part ways is our perception of the consequence of open carry, the effect it has on the general public Set aside the tactical advantage / disadvantage portion of the open carry debate. The point I am trying to make is the negative perceptions of open carry are ones we helped create by not open carrying
    My thought is that open carry is not about gaining favor some new mode of carry or establishing a new tradition. Rather it is about taking back ground we have lost. There was a time not so long ago when open carry was not frowned upon any more than we frown upon giggling pubescent girls and testosterone driven males operating two ton weapons of mass destruction because open carry was just as common as teenage drivers are today. It was a given that most people open carrying were average normal law abiding citizens because they were. My thought is because out of politeness and consideration for the sensibilities of others, less gun owners carried openly two things have resulted. One the antis have taken a kindness as a weakness and now expect that we bow down to their unreasonable fears. What was once a courtesy is an expectaion. Even the courts have ruled that the fear reaction is unreasonable. Two because it is now an uncommon sight many including those of us who carry misinterpret the motives of those that open carry. Often alarmed by what was once a commonly accepted practice. In effect by not openly carrying we encourage some of the negative fear responses to all gun carry. So, my thought is if more people openly carried it would once again become a common sight and in time generate more acceptance of all kinds of carry
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

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  15. #45
    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    I apologize if that is the perception. My intent was to snip enough to reference what I was responding to. We both agree that a law requiring open carry to be objectionable, although maybe not for exactly all the same reasons. Where we part ways is our perception of the consequence of open carry, the effect it has on the general public Set aside the tactical advantage / disadvantage portion of the open carry debate. The point I am trying to make is the negative perceptions of open carry are ones we helped create by not open carrying
    My thought is that open carry is not about gaining favor some new mode of carry or establishing a new tradition. Rather it is about taking back ground we have lost. There was a time not so long ago when open carry was not frowned upon any more than we frown upon giggling pubescent girls and testosterone driven males operating two ton weapons of mass destruction because open carry was just as common as teenage drivers are today. It was a given that most people open carrying were average normal law abiding citizens because they were. My thought is because out of politeness and consideration for the sensibilities of others, less gun owners carried openly two things have resulted. One the antis have taken a kindness as a weakness and now expect that we bow down to their unreasonable fears. What was once a courtesy is an expectaion. Even the courts have ruled that the fear reaction is unreasonable. Two because it is now an uncommon sight many including those of us who carry misinterpret the motives of those that open carry. Often alarmed by what was once a commonly accepted practice. In effect by not openly carrying we encourage some of the negative fear responses to all gun carry. So, my thought is if more people openly carried it would once again become a common sight and in time generate more acceptance of all kinds of carry
    You make a good case for open carry. I can't really disagree with the points you make and I'd say if all who chose to open carry did so in the spirit you seem to have, perhaps the negative perceptions could be dispelled and we could take back some of the lost ground you speak of. The problem of course is those who strap on the gun and seem to be seeking confrontation and then when it comes in the form of law enforcement, become belligerant and non compliant. You've probably seen threads on the forum where that was evident. People looking for a chance to make a scene. In my humble opinion, much of our battle to maintain and enhance our rights as gun owners in the courts must also, largely be won in the courts of public opinion. Anyhow, your well crafted points are well taken.

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