Conceal N Carry-Mecklenburg County, NC

This is a discussion on Conceal N Carry-Mecklenburg County, NC within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; iMatt, I hate to disagree, since you seem quite sure of your interpretation of the statutes, but in my CCW class, there was a video ...

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Thread: Conceal N Carry-Mecklenburg County, NC

  1. #31
    Member Array tflhndn's Avatar
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    iMatt,

    I hate to disagree, since you seem quite sure of your interpretation of the statutes, but in my CCW class, there was a video of the State Attorney General explaining that while you may use deadly force to prevent entry into the house without the presence of an imminent threat (so long as said entry if reasonably felonious in nature, i.e. at night, breaking glass, kicking in door, etc.), once said intruder is in the house, imminent threat must be present again, before you can use deadly force.


    As I said, I do not know where your certainty in your interpretation comes from, but I for one, will go by the words of the Attorney General as memorialized in the REQUIRED video for CCW classes.

    If you have a source for your plain language explanation, I would be very interested in reviewing.

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  3. #32
    New Member Array wg8170's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCWINNC View Post
    IANAL however if they are standing over me and I shoot would that not be terminating the unlawful entry of the said perp. The statement

    "including deadly force, against an intruder to prevent a forcible entry into the home or residence or to terminate the intruder's unlawful entry " as I see it allows me to stop a forcible entry in progress (bashing in the door, breaking a window ..etc) and eliminate the threat by terminating there unlawful entry. They have unlawfully entered my home. If they are standing there looking at me or in the process of removing items I believe I have the right to terminate there unlawful presence.

    Am I off line here.
    Actually, ASSA9 is correct. NC's "castle doctrine" only applies to preventing entry. As my instructor explained it, the thought process is during the attempted forced entry, you have a reasonable right to assume that the BG has nefarious intentions. However, once the BG is inside, you are obligated to assess the situation and apply the standard guidlines for use of deadly force (i.e. you felt that you were in imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury). This is the part that is subjective and up to the discretion of the DA and worst case, a jury. More conservative areas of the state would probably hold that the mere fact that someone illegally entered you house gives you cause to feel so threatened. Other more liberal areas such as RTP, Asheville and even Charlotte might try to argue that if the BG had no weapon, there would be no reason to feel imminently threatened.

  4. #33
    New Member Array wg8170's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AeroScoper View Post
    You also have a duty to retreat in NC...
    This is not true. The following is taken directly from the NCAG website. (emphasis mine)

    14‑51.1. Use of deadly physical force against an intruder.

    (a) A lawful occupant within a home or other place of residence is justified in using any degree of force that the occupant reasonably believes is necessary, including deadly force, against an intruder to prevent a forcible entry into the home or residence or to terminate the intruder's unlawful entry (i) if the occupant reasonably apprehends that the intruder may kill or inflict serious bodily harm to the occupant or others in the home or residence, or (ii) if the occupant reasonably believes that the intruder intends to commit a felony in the home or residence.

    (b) A lawful occupant within a home or other place of residence does not have a duty to retreat from an intruder in the circumstances described in this section.

    (c) This section is not intended to repeal, expand, or limit any other defense that may exist under the common law. (1993 (Reg. Sess., 1994), c. 673, s. 1.)

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array NCHornet's Avatar
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    As I have said before the above confusion on our law is exactly why every NC gun owner needs to do his/her part to change our gun laws. 2009 is the big year. Get involved stay up to date with firearm situations by signing up for the alerts from Grass Roots of NC, and please join up and do your part to change our gun laws. Politicians tend to listen when their server crashes from thousands of emails. If you don't do your part, you have no right to complain!!!

    NCH
    When Seconds Count, The Cops Are Just Minutes Away!!
    Carry On!
    NCHornet

  6. #35
    Member Array imatt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wg8170 View Post
    Actually, ASSA9 is correct. NC's "castle doctrine" only applies to preventing entry. As my instructor explained it, the thought process is during the attempted forced entry, you have a reasonable right to assume that the BG has nefarious intentions. However, once the BG is inside, you are obligated to assess the situation and apply the standard guidlines for use of deadly force (i.e. you felt that you were in imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury). This is the part that is subjective and up to the discretion of the DA and worst case, a jury. More conservative areas of the state would probably hold that the mere fact that someone illegally entered you house gives you cause to feel so threatened. Other more liberal areas such as RTP, Asheville and even Charlotte might try to argue that if the BG had no weapon, there would be no reason to feel imminently threatened.
    Did you not read the State Law on Castle Doctrine? It's not up to the discretion of the DA on how you interpreted the threat. It's up to you to assess a threat of someone that has entered your house, not the DA. Whoever has broken in is a threat until they have left the house. In my house they're either going through a window and getting nice and bloody or kicking through a deadbolt - continuing inward would indicate nefarious motives.

    14‑51.1. Use of deadly physical force against an intruder.

    (a) A lawful occupant within a home or other place of residence is justified in using any degree of force that the occupant reasonably believes is necessary, including deadly force, against an intruder to prevent a forcible entry into the home or residence or to terminate the intruder's unlawful entry (i) if the occupant reasonably apprehends that the intruder may kill or inflict serious bodily harm to the occupant or others in the home or residence, or (ii) if the occupant reasonably believes that the intruder intends to commit a felony in the home or residence.
    Good gosh there's a lot of misinformed people. If someone breaks into your home and is standing over your bed, they are there to do harm to you or your family - period. If you think otherwise, you need to re-evaluate your thinking process. I reasonably believe nobody would break into my house unless they intend to commit a felony.

    A CCW instructor has no business telling you what you can and can't do in your house. Castle Doctrine is crystal clear!

    READ THE LAW people, don't just take your instructor at their word.



    The only reason there is confusion over Castle Doctrine, CCW and Duty to Retreat is because people don't read the laws for themselves.





    Quote Originally Posted by tflhndn View Post
    iMatt,

    I hate to disagree, since you seem quite sure of your interpretation of the statutes, but in my CCW class, there was a video of the State Attorney General explaining that while you may use deadly force to prevent entry into the house without the presence of an imminent threat (so long as said entry if reasonably felonious in nature, i.e. at night, breaking glass, kicking in door, etc.), once said intruder is in the house, imminent threat must be present again, before you can use deadly force.


    As I said, I do not know where your certainty in your interpretation comes from, but I for one, will go by the words of the Attorney General as memorialized in the REQUIRED video for CCW classes.

    If you have a source for your plain language explanation, I would be very interested in reviewing.
    My source is the written law of the Castle Doctrine. Read it. CCW class is NOT the authority on Castle Doctrine. We all saw the video, and it has no place in CCW class, and any teacher worth their weight in tobacco leaves would tell you that. CCW and Castle Doctrine are completely different and are applicable totally separately.

    If someone has kicked in the door and is in my house, they are an imminent threat to me and my family.

    Again, READ THE LAW, don't just go by what a video told you.

  7. #36
    New Member Array wg8170's Avatar
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    Just a couple of things before I politlely bow out of this "debate".

    Quote Originally Posted by imatt View Post
    Castle Doctrine is crystal clear!
    If this were the case, this thread would be over.

    Quote Originally Posted by imatt View Post
    Did you not read the State Law on Castle Doctrine? It's not up to the discretion of the DA on how you interpreted the threat. It's up to you to assess a threat of someone that has entered your house, not the DA.
    Somebody PLEASE correct me if I am wrong, but if you shoot someone in your home the case will go before the DA to see if there is enough evidence to press charges, correct?. If you notice in section i and ii, the use of the word "reasonably". It is my opinion that that word is there strictly for the laywers. Without it, I would agree with you that this statute is crystal clear. However this adds just enough subjectivity to allow for possible prosecution. Depending on the conditions in which you felt justified in pulling the trigger on a bad guy, it could be argued that your actions were un-reasonable. There are some people (not me) who think shooting an unarmed person is indefensible no matter what.

    Please don't take me as a bleeding-heart in disguise. I am ready and willing to do anything necessary protect myself and my family in a worse-case scenario. It just never pays to underestimate the level to which people have been brainwashed against the idea of self-defense...both the powers-that-be and the general public.

    Willing to be proven wrong,
    -wg

  8. #37
    Member Array imatt's Avatar
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    First off, I think "reasonably" is in there to protect US, so that when someone goes to court for a home defense scenario the Lawyer can't say "The law says you have to be certain the intruder was going to kill or inflict serious harm or commit a felony - how can you be 100% sure of this?" Inserting the term "reasonably" allows a judgment call instead of a 100% certainty call.


    I don't know how the Castle Doctrine could be more clearly written.

    If someone kicks in my door and rushed through my house at night, they are a threat to my family. At night you can't tell until it's too late if someone's carrying a weapon.


    The law reads that we can respond with force if:
    1) We reasonably apprehend that the intruder may kill or inflict serious bodily harm. If someone kicks in a door when we're at home (and doesn't run off when they see us), they want to badly hurt us or kill us.
    2) We reasonably believe that the intruder intends to commit a felony. Assault after breaking and entering becomes a felony in NC. There is only a very short list of reasons an intruder would approach an armed person inside the owner's house, after kicking the door in. Reason suggests they've not arrived to play Scrabble.

    There's always going to be somebody who says your actions aren't justifiable, no matter how justifiable they are. Lawyers are always going to skew things, count on it.


    Operate within the law, don't be afraid of it.

  9. #38
    New Member Array MurphyTWD's Avatar
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    I agree I think the law is written clear when you are discussing your place of dwelling (i.e. home, car, hotel, etc). So if the BG is in my house, they are there illegally and I have the right to defend my self, family and my home. However, if the BG is on the way out the door (window) and I kill them then I have used excessive force as the BG was exiting my home and has stopped any felonious activity an.

    But if you kill a BG in your house and your unsure if you did the right thing or not. Go and grab a kitchen knife and put it in the dead bodies hand. It doesn't matter that your prints are on it, it's your knife. Remember real life is not what you see on CSI or any other show. But know this. If you do what I just said you have contaminated a crime and could be charged with missing with evidence.

    Now with all of that being said, this has nothing to do with the original post. It took me almost the full 90 days to get my CCL. While my friend in the neighboring county took only a few weeks (maybe a month). While both sheriffs are pro-gun, I think it might make difference if you have recently requested a handgun permit before or not (I hadn't, he had).

  10. #39
    VIP Member Array NCHornet's Avatar
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    I didn't think we have "Castle Doctrine " in NC???? This was one of the things we are trying to get passed in 2009. True Castle Doctrine says that your ar immune from any prosecution when you are acting defend person or property, NC law doesn't go to this extent. We don't have to retreat, we are allowed to use force to stop the threat, but we are also liable for our actions when doing so. If you can find clear cut proof that we have actual "Castle Doctrine" in NC I would like to see it.

    NCH
    When Seconds Count, The Cops Are Just Minutes Away!!
    Carry On!
    NCHornet

  11. #40
    VIP Member Array NCHornet's Avatar
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    Below is a link to a petition to have Castle Doctrine approved in NC. In it it states everything that castle Doctrine provides and we do not have Castle Doctrine in NC. I think some others need to understand the laws of their state and sign this petition.

    Castle Doctrine In North Carolina - Signatures

    Here is also a map that clearly shows the states with castle doctrine and NC isn't part of it!!

    http://tekel.wordpress.com/2007/10/1...-by-state-map/

    Here is more material if you aren't convinced.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doctrine

    We need to be very careful what we tell folks on the internet as many will not do the research to learn for themselves.

    NCH
    When Seconds Count, The Cops Are Just Minutes Away!!
    Carry On!
    NCHornet

  12. #41
    VIP Member Array NCHornet's Avatar
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    Upon doing some more reading I have learned something new. There are actually different levels of Castle Doctrine. The best of these is sometimes called "Stand your Ground " provisions. Texas for example has this, you have no duty to retreat anywhere you are located, home, work, parking lot etc.. you are also immune from prosecution after the event, unless they can prove excessive force is used.
    Here is some more reading in the subject.
    In addition to providing a valid defense in criminal law, many versions of the Castle Doctrine, particularly those with a "Stand-Your-Ground clause", also have a clause which provides immunity from any lawsuit filed on behalf of the assailant for damages/injury resulting from the shootings. Without this clause, it is possible for an assailant to sue for medical bills, property damage, disability, and pain and suffering as a result of the injuries inflicted by the shooter, or for their next-of-kin to sue for wrongful death in the case of a shooting fatality. Even if successfully refuted, the defendant (the homeowner/shooter) must often pay thousands of dollars in legal costs as a result of such lawsuits, and thus without immunity, such civil action could be used for revenge against a shooter acting lawfully.

    The only exceptions to this civil immunity are generally situations of excessive force, where the shooter fired on a subdued, cooperative, or disabled assailant. A situation meeting this exception generally invalidates the criminal "castle defense" as well. In addition, someone who fires in self-defense is still liable for any damages or injuries to third parties who were not acting criminally at the time of the shooting.
    In NC I reckon you can say we have a form of Castle Doctrine but not the type we want to have. We don't have a failure to retreat as long as we are in our own home, nothing is mentioned about work place, parking lots automobile etc... We are also not immune from prosecution after the fact. Here is some more reading on the subject.
    North Carolina
    Use of deadly physical force against an intruder.

    (a) A lawful occupant within a home or other place of residence is justified in using any degree of force that the occupant reasonably believes is necessary, including deadly force, against an intruder to prevent a forcible entry into the home or residence or to terminate the intruder's unlawful entry (i) if the occupant reasonably apprehends that the intruder may kill or inflict serious bodily harm to the occupant or others in the home or residence, or (ii) if the occupant reasonably believes that the intruder intends to commit a felony in the home or residence.

    (b) A lawful occupant within a home or other place of residence does not have a duty to retreat from an intruder in the circumstances described in this section.
    What all gun owners should desire for is the "STAND YOUR GROUND CASTLE DOCTRINE" that Texas and other states currently have. This is why it is so important that all gun owners in NC vote on the petition I have listed and most important join Grass Roots of NC and join their mailing list so you can stay on top of firearm topics in our state. When they send you the alert take the five minutes and contact your represntatives. Many of you have no idea how Grass Roots have helped prevent Bills that would have affected gun owners in a very negative way. I am going back in my hole now.

    NCH
    When Seconds Count, The Cops Are Just Minutes Away!!
    Carry On!
    NCHornet

  13. #42
    New Member Array wg8170's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCHornet View Post
    Upon doing some more reading I have learned something new. There are actually different levels of Castle Doctrine.
    This is the position I have (evidently poorly) been trying to explain iMatt. This is why in post #32 I did not capitalize and used quotation marks in my use of "castle doctrine". While NC does acknowledge some degree of self defense in the event of an intruder, it certainly does not grant us immunity from prosecution. I do not consider this a true form of what is normally considered Castle Doctrine.

    Between this and CC limitations regarding places that charge admission and restaurants that sell alcohol, I will be looking into the efforts of GrassrootsNC.

    -wg

  14. #43
    Senior Member Array TomEgun's Avatar
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    They had a table at the Dixie Gun Knife show last week and I checked out there site plan on joining this week. Welcome to GRNC Isnt there a new bill in house for 2009 that strengthens the Castle law in NC from what I was reading it takes away civil lawsuit .
    "If you want peace, prepare for war." Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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  15. #44
    Member Array imatt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wg8170 View Post
    This is the position I have (evidently poorly) been trying to explain iMatt. This is why in post #32 I did not capitalize and used quotation marks in my use of "castle doctrine". While NC does acknowledge some degree of self defense in the event of an intruder, it certainly does not grant us immunity from prosecution. I do not consider this a true form of what is normally considered Castle Doctrine.

    Between this and CC limitations regarding places that charge admission and restaurants that sell alcohol, I will be looking into the efforts of GrassrootsNC.

    -wg
    Standing your ground when not in your place of residence isn't part of NC's Castle Doctrine. I didn't realize you were speaking of a full anywhere-you-are Castle Doctrine.

    It appears your view is that Castle Doctrine should be expanded to be more legally protective of the homeowner/victim -- I highly agree that it needs updating. It is pretty decent as it stands - it just doesn't protect from civil lawsuits, and should be expanded to include outside the home.

    North Carolina General Assembly - House Bill 476 Information/History (2007-2008 Session) Check out HB476 - would be exactly what you're talking about.


    Quote Originally Posted by NCHornet View Post
    Castle Doctrine State-by-State Map tekel

    Here is more material if you aren't convinced.

    Castle Doctrine in the US - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    We need to be very careful what we tell folks on the internet as many will not do the research to learn for themselves.
    The petition is a bit misleading, and as you said, some people won't do research themselves. We have CD inside our residence, but not around town. HB476 would extend the existing doctrine and would enable NC to fit the public definition of Castle Doctrine.

    TomEgun, HB476 is probably what you're referring to.

    I like it when discussions actually become productive!

  16. #45
    Member Array tflhndn's Avatar
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    Just a comment:
    Castle Doctrine is intended to refer to events/liability within your house (i.e. a man's house is his castle).
    The "Stand your Ground" doctrine carries that concept much, much farther and should (IMHO) be considered or referred to as a castle doctrine, but as what it is - Stand Your Ground.

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