21 Feet Is Way Too Close - Page 3

21 Feet Is Way Too Close

This is a discussion on 21 Feet Is Way Too Close within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I think most of us were taught 21 feet was point of no return or decision time!I was taught to avoid getting in such a ...

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Thread: 21 Feet Is Way Too Close

  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array Stetson's Avatar
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    I think most of us were taught 21 feet was point of no return or
    decision time!I was taught to avoid getting in such a situation.


  2. #32
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    Bob - sure as heck - that provokes a LOT of thought - a whole heap of things to consider.

    Thx for posting it.
    Chris - P95
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  3. #33
    Member Array grnzbra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bud White

    Most people were at 27 feet for 2 shots i was faster and they told the class there is always someone who can beat the drill but as shown 15 out of 16 couldnt


    i got 2 off at 17feet from my Hk 45 That was cocked and locked

    This is only beating the drill in an academic sense; you still lose. If he's running at you and you hit him when he's only 1 yard away, you still get stabbed, perhaps fataly. You've got to get off line. This will give you the advantage because you will be inside his OODA. When you get off line, he will probably keep going in a straight line because he expected you to freeze up.

    Try it with an airsoft gun.
    There's a reason The Sopranos is set in New Jersey.
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  4. #34
    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    Your absoultly right i didnt mean to show it any way other than even controlled conditutions it couldnt easyly be beat ..

    And that was a straight line too With gun out ..

    i think onyl reason i was fast enough was i shoot a ton i have no doubt in that type of real run in you will get stabbed unless you can sidestep real fast

  5. #35
    Senior Member Array madmike's Avatar
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    I find this thread particularly interesting, and more than a little disturbing.

    Before reading it, I was using 21 feet as a practice range because I thought that any distance beyond that would be hard to justify as "self-defense."

    Now, that looks like seriously flawed thinking!

    Next trip to the range, the target will get run further down the track.

    mm
    Political Correctness has now "evolved" into Political Cowardice.

  6. #36
    Member Array grnzbra's Avatar
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    Now let's add in the question of whether or not he is going to start his attack at 7 yards. That might work in rural areas or parks, but on a city street, that's a galaxy far far away; the attack is more likely to come from a range of 7 feet.

    I've known about this drill for several years now, but when I did it "for real" in a force on force class, it took on a reality that is frightening beyond anything that can be described in words. With your gun concealed, you have to stand around and wait for him to attack.

    7 Yards:

    "Dum-de-dum-de-dum. Well I wonder how this exercise is going to go. Dum-de-dum-de-dum. Hmm, wonder what the wife is doing now. Dum-de-dum-de-dum. Gotta remember to get gas on the way back to the hotel. Dum-de-dum-de-OHMYGOD! HERE HE COMES! GOTTA GET OFF LINE! GET THE PULLOVER OUT OF THE WAY WITH THE THUMB AS YOU DRAW THE GUN! GUN OUT! LINE GUN UP ON HIM AS HE GOES BY! SHOOT! SHOOT! SHOOT! WHY ISN'T THIS THING FIRING!? oops. forgot the safety." (add 1 to the plus column for Glocks)

    Now repeat at 5 yards.

    Now repeat at 3 yards.

    And that was a straight line too With gun out
    I'm not sure what you mean by "straight line" and "with gun out".

    By the way, while you're at Frank's page, check out his Recomended Reading link. There's a whole bunch of good stuff there.
    There's a reason The Sopranos is set in New Jersey.
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  7. #37
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    Sometimes, the gun is not the best choice; I tend to think this is one of those times. From FOF drills, I've found it is, hmmm... complicated to try to draw and dodge at the same time.

    The tactics I've been taught to defend against an attack from 21 feet is to wait until the last moment to move off the line of attack so that the attacker doesn't have time to make a "course correction".

    In the case of a knife attack starting with a charge from 21 feet, it seems to be most advantageous to move off the line of attack, use your hands to divert the knife/attacker as you pivot away from him. The attacker's momentum carries him past you, you are now to his side/back and have plenty of time to draw.

    Sometimes the gun first isn't the best solution.

  8. #38
    Member Array Kompact9's Avatar
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    acparmed, et alia,

    A very thought provoking thread to say the least...avoidance, gain distance/cover, draw, and setup. All that, and with good fortune, you have a good chance to prevail...methinks I must rethink, again. Kudos to all...
    noli nothis permittere te terere...

  9. #39
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    I'm not sure what you mean by "straight line" and "with gun out".
    Grn - I took Bud there, to mean standing square on - sorta isosceles and gun straight out, or at least ready position.

    A luxury we would not probably have, apart from making target presentation of selves max'd!
    Chris - P95
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    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  10. #40
    VIP Member Array Sheldon J's Avatar
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    Talking You said a mouthfull

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle
    Sometimes, the gun is not the best choice; I tend to think this is one of those times. From FOF drills, I've found it is, hmmm... complicated to try to draw and dodge at the same time.

    The tactics I've been taught to defend against an attack from 21 feet is to wait until the last moment to move off the line of attack so that the attacker doesn't have time to make a "course correction".

    In the case of a knife attack starting with a charge from 21 feet, it seems to be most advantageous to move off the line of attack, use your hands to divert the knife/attacker as you pivot away from him. The attacker's momentum carries him past you, you are now to his side/back and have plenty of time to draw.

    Sometimes the gun first isn't the best solution.
    Only some one with a death wish would stand still for the BG to attack. You have to move, quickly, and continously away from the threat. Distance is your friend it gives you time to do what is necesary to stay alive.
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon J
    Only some one with a death wish would stand still for the BG to attack. You have to move, quickly, and continously away from the threat. Distance is your friend it gives you time to do what is necesary to stay alive.
    I agree, but unless someone has been exposed to a situation like this through training or at least a discussion like this, they may simply freeze because of not having a plan. It's awfully easy to stand there and not know what to do. Some would probably move instinctively and some not.

  12. #42
    Member Array grnzbra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle
    unless someone has been exposed to a situation like this through training or at least a discussion like this, they may simply freeze because of not having a plan.
    Or if they have trained that way because ranges generally tend to frown on running while firing a live weapon, they may stand and shoot just as the guy sticks the knive in them.
    There's a reason The Sopranos is set in New Jersey.
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  13. #43
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    Cool Paper Punching v. Tactical Problem Solving = IDPA

    Quote Originally Posted by grnzbra
    Or if they have trained that way because ranges generally tend to frown on running while firing a live weapon, they may stand and shoot just as the guy sticks the knive in them.
    Well, if the extent of your practice is static at a range that allows for only punching paper...then yeah. But leaving the old argument for or against IDPA as viable tactical training....it's far better than static target shooting. IDPA clubs like mine, require solid problem solving skills that reflect actual street situations. IDPA requires one to move, shoot and communicate. AND to problem solve...tactically. This would include reasonable disengagement where needed and always proper cover and reloading procedures. We've argued the limitations of IDPA ad nauseum, but I think it serves a valid purpose.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  14. #44
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    We've argued the limitations of IDPA ad nauseum, but I think it serves a valid purpose.
    To which Ex I'd just add - ''providing we accept its limitations'' - but that said and from my POV - some IDPA is way more beneficial than none at all - as long as bad habits don't creep in!

    And it's a loada fun too
    Chris - P95
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    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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