Fairfax County Police (WoW) From VCDL (UGLY) - Page 5

Fairfax County Police (WoW) From VCDL (UGLY)

This is a discussion on Fairfax County Police (WoW) From VCDL (UGLY) within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; As a former Fairfax resident for 20 years, I can tell you the political atmosphere has gone far left recently. I know that shouldn't involve ...

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  1. #61
    Senior Member Array press1280's Avatar
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    As a former Fairfax resident for 20 years, I can tell you the political atmosphere has gone far left recently. I know that shouldn't involve the cops but in reality they are a reflection of the government. That's why incidents like this would happen in Northern Virginia, but cops in rural areas wouldn't even blink.
    With more and more liberal people in the county who won't get CC permits,not to mention illegal aliens who can't get CC permits anyway, anyone seen carrying will set off instant alarm bells to the younger cops, and I presume when they educate these new cops that firearms may not be something they spend a lot of time on. That's just my impression though, I may be way off base.........
    "The right of the whole people, old and young, men, women and boys, and not militia only, to keep and bear arms of every description, not such merely as are used by the militia, shall not be infringed, curtailed, or broken in upon, in the smallest degree..."
    Nunn v. State GA 1848


  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by LenS View Post
    Backup on car stops is a normal thing, providing an officer is available. They are the most risky (aside from DV cases) stops that any officer can make (e.g. more officers are hurt/killed at traffic stops than anything else), so two more eyes and another officer can increase safety for all.
    I agree with the routine traffic stops being dangerous but I have never seen a routine stop where the officer calls for backup without some kind of reason but I am not a LEO, just friends with many. Also I am not saying it was wrong just wondering why and as I said maybe could shed some light on this incident. Maybe it was something the the fellow said to the LEO beyond I have a CWP and gun that caused him to react and call for backup.

    As for knowing the law, the academies don't teach everything there is to know about firearms law and most officers really aren't that knowledgeable in that area. In my state there is a 400 pg book published just on the firearms laws for LEOs . . . very few LEOs ever read it or try to understand it. I worked for the PD for 17 years as a Reserve PO, qualified with fellow officers and know how ignorant they are on the gun laws here. I've had our chief ask me about the gun laws. I'm aware of a situation where someone was arrested for "possession of a BB gun without a license" . . . there is no such thing in this state and no requirement for any license for BB guns.
    There are a few basic laws out of that 400 page book that every LEO should know. I don't expect one to have everyone of them memorized but the basics are necessary. Things such as possession of a BB gun or that concealed permits including reciprical permits exist should be a basic knowledge. I don't really expect him to know the details of what states qualify but know that some do and check to see if they do. As my college professors used to tell us that we can't possibly know everything they tried to teach us but we should know how to find the information when we needed to.


    If you announce that you are carrying in my state, expect a felony stop! Many POs don't even know that citizens can carry a gun legally here and their reaction is likely to be predictable and unpleasant.
    Please, what state are you in so I can avoid it or at least not carry in it. As with the fellow from NC if I get stopped I plan to tell the officer that I have a gun but have no intention of using it unless I have to. If the meer fact that I am legally carrying a gun causes a felony stop and that kind of fear out of a police officer then something needs to change. I don't know where you are talking about but I have never seen or heard of such of a reaction from any LEO around here and to make comments like that does the officers around here a disservice that they do not act like that.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by FN1910 View Post
    I agree with the routine traffic stops being dangerous but I have never seen a routine stop where the officer calls for backup without some kind of reason but I am not a LEO, just friends with many. Also I am not saying it was wrong just wondering why and as I said maybe could shed some light on this incident. Maybe it was something the the fellow said to the LEO beyond I have a CWP and gun that caused him to react and call for backup.
    It isnt a matter of "calling for backup" I stop by other LEO's stops all the time and they do mine. Its a courtesy thing. Two cruisers at a traffic stop really means nothing, I'm not sure why people get all worked up about this.
    If the cruisers are stacked directly behind one another, nothing to be concerned with. If the are in some funky looking configuration... then it might be something.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by LenS View Post
    If you announce that you are carrying in my state, expect a felony stop! Many POs don't even know that citizens can carry a gun legally here and their reaction is likely to be predictable and unpleasant.
    Well this is Virginia. And there is a case (GOODMAN v. COMMONWEALTH OF VIRGINIA, COURT OF APPEALS OF VIRGINIA Record No. 1971-06-1 See: http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinio...wp/1971061.pdf) which some, if not all Police Academies teach, as it is an important Terry Stop case. The relevance here is that it clearly establishes that possession/carrying is not a crime in Virginia and not by itself "reasonable suspicion' to justify a Terry Stop -- much less a felony stop.

    Although the informant’s information provided Officer Ingram with reasonable suspicion to believe appellant possessed a firearm, nothing in the record provided reasonable suspicion for the belief that this possession was illegal. “Absent some disqualifying status (being a felon, juvenile, or drug possessor) or situs (being in a place where weapons are forbidden), it is not a crime to possess a weapon.” Jackson v. Commonwealth, 41 Va. App. 211, 231, 583 S.E.2d 780, 790 (2003) (en banc), rev’d on other grounds, 267 Va. 666, 594 S.E.2d 595 (2004).
    BTW -- Before someone jumps me that the Fairfax situation was a concealed carry where the LEOs were wrong about reciprocity, I know. I am just commenting on the issue LenS raised about possession always resulting in a felony stop in his home State.
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  5. #65
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    I drove through this area on my way to family vacation on the OBX, and I carried the whole way. I spent alot of time reviewing laws for each state I passed through. I would not have appreciated this scenario going down in front of my family.

    The thing that this points out to me is how "unorthodox" carrying a gun still is in many areas of the country. There are many stories like this and it just shows how many agencies (or groups within) still don't know that we license holders are legal. I find it disturbing that we still have some risk of running into a situation where we could be arrested and have our property confiscated while doing nothing wrong. If the guy ran a red light, fine....give him his ticket and send him on his way.....there's just no excuse for the rest.

    Don't we as citizens get told that ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it? The same should apply to the arresting officers in this case. I hope some action is taken to try to prevent this from happening again.

  6. #66
    Senior Member Array CR2008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob99VMI04 View Post
    2. Three Fairfax County police officers prove the Keystone Kops are
    alive and well
    ************************************************** ********

    We haven't had any issues with the Fairfax County police in quite a
    while now. I have found them to be one of the best run police
    agencies in Virginia.

    However, three officers tarnished that image last week when they
    unlawfully arrested a North Carolina resident who was legally carrying
    a handgun and had a North Carolina CHP.

    Hold on tight - this is a weird story.

    The gun owner was pulled over for running through a red light, a
    charge which the gun owner disputes.

    The gun owner, believing that he had to disclose he was lawfully armed
    as they do in North Carolina, dutifully told the officer he had a NC
    CHP and was indeed armed.

    The officer seemed to ignore the statement, but very shortly two more
    patrol units pulled up. The next thing the gun owner knew he is in a
    "felony stop" mode. He was asked to walk backwards towards the
    officers, who then disarmed and handcuffed him.

    While trying to unloaded his gun, THEY DROPPED IT ONTO THE ROAD!

    The two officers and a SERGEANT then proceeded to tell him that he was
    under arrested for:

    1. Having hollow point bullets, which they claimed were illegal in
    Virginia (!)
    2. Taking a loaded gun across the state line, which the gun owner
    was told was a FELONY (!)
    3. Having a concealed gun that the police said he couldn't have since
    he was from North Carolina (!!)

    His car and gun were impounded and he was taken off to a magistrate.

    The magistrate looked at the charges and told the police officers that
    they had just made a false arrest.

    The officers pointed out the possession of hollow point bullets. The
    magistrate asked, "are they teflon coated?"

    "No," replied on of the officers.

    "Then they are legal."

    Trying to find something that would stick and justify the false
    arrest, one of the officers said, "We couldn't verify that his North
    Carolina permit is valid."

    The magistrate looked at the permit, noticed the phone number on the
    back where one can call to verify the permit, called the number, and
    within a few minutes found out the permit was indeed valid.

    The gun owner was ordered to be released.

    After being released from custody, the gun owner was given a hard time
    by another officer about getting his gun back, but he did finally get
    it back.

    If all of that isn't bad enough, the arresting officer went ahead and
    gave the gun owner a ticket for the alleged offense of running a red
    light!

    In essence, with that brilliant move, the officer was practically
    BEGGING the gun owner to PLEASE sue Fairfax County for the false arrest!

    I have already talked to my high-level contact with the Fairfax County
    PD about this entire situation and the gun owner has filed a formal
    complaint.

    In the past, Fairfax County PD has been very good when such internal
    investigations are required. Now we will wait and see what happens.

    What is clear is that Fairfax County PD needs to educate its officers
    on:

    1. Possession of hollow point bullets
    2. Reciprocity laws
    3. Lawful carriage of firearms across state lines
    4. Safe gun handling (a few years ago unsafe gun handling by an
    officer cause a gun to discharge, killing an unarmed, handcuffed man)
    If that were me in this guys place, I would be really really looking on possibly trying to sue them... at lest that permit holder never got physically abused like some people I have read about.
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  7. #67
    Senior Member Array CR2008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FN1910 View Post
    If the meer fact that I am legally carrying a gun causes a felony stop and that kind of fear out of a police officer then something needs to change. I don't know where you are talking about but I have never seen or heard of such of a reaction from any LEO around here and to make comments like that does the officers around here a disservice that they do not act like that.
    I can understand what the poster of this threat is saying, because here in DeKalb country Metro Atlanta, if you are "made" while CCing or even OCing, LEOs have actually DRAWN their weapons on people before and even taken them face down when they had been informed they were carrying (while the permit holder never even resisted or made any threatening moves!), this is why I am SOOO HAPPY that it's not a legal requirement to inform officers that I am carrying unless they actually ask me, because the likely hood of one drawing his gun on me in DeKalb is scary enough, and I don't feel like getting tazered or kissing dirt, especially if the officer were ignorant of gun laws.
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  8. #68
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LenS View Post

    Backup on car stops is a normal thing, providing an officer is available. They are the most risky (aside from DV cases) stops that any officer can make (e.g. more officers are hurt/killed at traffic stops than anything else), so two more eyes and another officer can increase safety for all.
    +1
    Additional officers also make searching a vehicle ( when necessary) a lot safer. This allows an officer to focus his full attention on the search knowing that another officer has secured the operator. Also a lot of traffic stops result in vehicle being towed for various reasons. A second officer, if there is an arrest, allows the arresting officer to transport his prisoner without having to sit there waiting for the tow truck. And, depending on the time of day, it may be an opportunity for the officers to get together and figure out where to go for lunch!
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  9. #69
    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CR2008 View Post
    I can understand what the poster of this threat is saying, because here in DeKalb country Metro Atlanta, if you are "made" while CCing or even OCing, LEOs have actually DRAWN their weapons on people before and even taken them face down when they had been informed they were carrying (while the permit holder never even resisted or made any threatening moves!), this is why I am SOOO HAPPY that it's not a legal requirement to inform officers that I am carrying unless they actually ask me, because the likely hood of one drawing his gun on me in DeKalb is scary enough, and I don't feel like getting tazered or kissing dirt, especially if the officer were ignorant of gun laws.
    The problem is in some states its a crime not to notify. This was an out of state resident that came from a state where you are required to tell them you have a gun. Therefore, unless your a resident of the state and you know beyond a reasonable doubt you do not have to notify most law abiding people are going to notify. Virginia is not a Notification state. You do not have to tell them you are armed. However, a programmed OHIO resident or North Carolina Resident may not know this and tell based on the knowledge of their own states. This is why its so important to know the Firearms laws in everystate when you travel. I usually down load and try and keep a copy for each state I'm going through.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

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  10. #70
    Senior Member Array InspectorGadget's Avatar
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    As far as a LEO with a degree goes my last duty station before I retired was at a US Navy Missile test Facility with 3000+ Engineers, Literally Rocket Scientists, that had high IQ's, I would hear Hewlett Packard vs Texas Instruments Calculator arguments get heated almost to the point of taking swings at each other. Yes that had Multiple Masters Degrees, but a lot of them had no common sense whatsoever. They could give me the technical details of how to shoot down an ICBM, but had a hard time tying their shoes. A degree makes someone knowledgeable in a specific area but it does not make someone smart.

    I also know guys that have dropped out of High school that I want there if TSHTF. They may not know rocket science but they do know how to get things done, and I can trust them with my life when things go bad.

    Just because a LEO has a degree doesn't mean that I want him having unlimited power over me. The degree really means nothing when TSHTF, you need someone in charge that knows how to take charge. There were a lot of Police and Firemen in NO when Katrina hit probably with degrees, they were clueless until Gen Honree arrived because NO ONE was taking charge. Gen Honree showed up and said I am in charge and things immediately started going smoother.
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonesy_26 View Post

    The thing that this points out to me is how "unorthodox" carrying a gun still is in many areas of the country. There are many stories like this and it just shows how many agencies (or groups within) still don't know that we license holders are legal. I find it disturbing that we still have some risk of running into a situation where we could be arrested and have our property confiscated while doing nothing wrong. If the guy ran a red light, fine....give him his ticket and send him on his way.....there's just no excuse for the rest.
    ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

    I got to thinking about the timing between this thread and the Heller thread.

    I find it disturbing that we still have some risk of a felony stop until we prove that we are legal.

    The Court goes back even beyond the US Constitution to Blackstone in asserting a basic right that some, sworn to uphold the law, feel we need to prove exist while facing down their drawn guns.
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    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  12. #72
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    It's fairly common human behavior, that when telling or re-telling a story, we leave out small facts that color us in a bad light and embellish facts that support our story. Come on now, admit it... we ALL do it to some degree.

    Having said that and having also been a LEO I'd like to just add, attitude is everything! A simple stop can easily be escalated to a high risk stop if the person being pulled over demonstrates an angry or aggressive attitude toward the officer coupled with the presence of a weapon.

    I'm not taking sides here yet but... we really don't yet know the original officer's side of the story and I have to believe that he must have had some reason to call for and preform a "high risk stop".
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

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  13. #73
    Ex Member Array FN1910's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    It isnt a matter of "calling for backup" I stop by other LEO's stops all the time and they do mine. Its a courtesy thing. Two cruisers at a traffic stop really means nothing, I'm not sure why people get all worked up about this.
    If the cruisers are stacked directly behind one another, nothing to be concerned with. If the are in some funky looking configuration... then it might be something.
    That is what I was getting at and thought I had said that. I often see an officer having pulled someone over and another one who happens by stops by just in case. There is nothing wrong with this and a very good idea. I just wondered if the other two officers had happened by or were they called in to help. If they just happend by or even heard the conversation on the radio and decided to check it out becasue of a slow night is one thing but if the original had gotten on the radio calling for help in a panic mode may shed a different light on his thoughts during the stop.

    I was on jury duty where a deputy sheriff had come across a fellow parked in a filling station lot late at night after it had closed. A Highway Patrolman stopped by to see if he needed help. A long story but before it was over with the fellow was charged with drunk driving. His trial was almost a joke and he did absolutely nothing to help himself. In fact the prosecutor and patrolman told me that if the man hadn't been stupid they really didn't have a case but he hung himself.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumper View Post
    A simple stop can easily be escalated to a high risk stop if the person being pulled over demonstrates an angry or aggressive attitude toward the officer coupled with the presence of a weapon.
    I sure you are not suggesting that a bad attitude would justify a false arrest -- or even a felony stop without meeting the Terry Stop standards. Are you?

    However, under Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968) attitude, hunches, etc don't justify a detention -- and here in Virginia under GOODMAN v. COMMONWEALTH OF VIRGINIA COURT OF APPEALS OF VIRGINIA Record No. 1971-06-1 (See: http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinio...wp/1971061.pdf) the simple presence of a gun doesn't.

    IMHO there is a big gap between the concept of angry and the concept of aggressive. In addition, a lot of what some folk call aggressive is actually assertive. -- standing up for your rights and not being taken advantage of is one definition of being assertive. (see:Learning to be Assertive)

    What some authoritarian personalities want is for everyone else to be passive. When these authoritarian personalities meet an assertive individual they react out of proportion to the situation -- and IF they abuse what authority they may have, they need to be called to task. Not just for the sake of their victims but, as importantly, to maintain the respect of others in the same position of authority.

    I wasn't there. There may be more to the story, as you suggest. But for now I'm not assuming anything. Just talking about the information presented (albeit with a certain personal trust in the source) and reacting to comments about this type of situation, as though it were a hypothetical scenario.
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    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    IMHO there is a big gap between the concept of angry and the concept of aggressive. In addition, a lot of what some folk call aggressive is actually assertive. -- standing up for your rights and not being taken advantage of is one definition of being assertive.
    There is a significant difference between being angry and acting in an immature manner. You can be angry for whatever reason you like. But once you fail to comply with reasonable requests you will probably get yourself into trouble.

    If one doesn't mind being detained, questioned and treated like a child, all in the name of some perceived right then that is your perogative. That is not being assertive. That is acting in a manner inconsistent with adult behavior.


    What some authoritarian personalities want is for everyone else to be passive. When these authoritarian personalities meet an assertive individual they react out of proportion to the situation
    It is not an assertive personality that is at issue. The police are in a position of authority. When they meet someone acting out, or someone who thinks they know more than they do, or someone who tries to explain their job to them then that 'assertive' individual is simply asking for a negative turn of events. And almost always, they get it.

    There is a severe lack of facts and balance in the article presented. Virtually all of these situations can be handled without incident by simply doing the right thing.

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