Concealed Carry - Without A CCW

Concealed Carry - Without A CCW

This is a discussion on Concealed Carry - Without A CCW within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I have a question. My former roomate and friend who nows lives upstairs from me asked me a very intriquing question the other day. He ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array d2thomas's Avatar
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    Concealed Carry - Without A CCW

    I have a question. My former roomate and friend who nows lives upstairs from me asked me a very intriquing question the other day. He bought a .380 pistol [browning I think] but doesn't have his CCW. He wants to carry around his apartment and on the property of the apartment complex. In reviewing the michigan law below, I told him I thought it was ok...tell me what you guys think.

    WEB SITE
    "750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty. Sec. 227.

    (1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.

    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.

    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or by a fine of not more than $2,500.00."
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  2. #2
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    It's going to take a court case to prove that either way. When I lived in the ghetto however, I CCWed on my apartment complex sans permit. If you'd seen where I lived you would have to.

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    Yuk, I hate reading legal writing.

    From the text you pasted, it appears it would be okay for him to carry in his apartment, but I do not believe the surrounding apartment complex, like the laundry facility, swimming pool, gym area, etc. would be considered his "dwelling." Hopefully somebody has the details on that. "Place of business" means he has to be the business owner - at least here in TN I believe that's what it applies to.
    "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa

  4. #4
    Senior Member Array BlueLion's Avatar
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    To make it easy for him just tell him to get his ccw and he will not regret it. This is money well spent in the day and time we live in. What if he is getting out of his car and is approached by a bad guy, pistol is no good upstairs.
    Listen, Think and React.....Nuff Said.....

  5. #5
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    For what its worth, I used to be a MI LE officer. the apartment complex is public domain outside of the dwelling, (not owned by your friend) I assume. Inside , his rental he should be o.k. If he is caught outside with a CC on him , most likely he will be proscecuted. Why not just get the CCW permit? Cost isn't that high considering its for 5 years now.

  6. #6
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    Rocky has it. In the apartment is ok. Cross the threshold of the apartment door and you are no longer legal. Other than money is there some reason he doesn't want to pursue a CHP?

    -Scott-

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    Member Array AZG23's Avatar
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    Also there may be provisions to his lease regarding firearms on lease property...Ive heard of it before, just food for thought. He may lose his lease if he were to need it...best to be fully legal under the law of the land...I dont like it myself..as I feel you shouldnt need a permit from dotgov to carry concealed or otherwise.
    Brad B.

  8. #8
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    Leaving aside our rights - sure, it has to be way more sensible to bite the bullet and stay WITHIN the laws we find ourselves trapped under.

    Infringement could so easily lead to problems and further inability to even consider future carry or gun ownership. We have to be forward looking.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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  9. #9
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    I've always looked at it this way. Let's say you own a house. You can take any darn gun you want to out in the yard. You'd be well advised to not advertise it however, as people are hoplophobes.

    Let's say you rent the house. You can still take any darn gun you want to out in the yard. You'd still be well advised not to advertise it.

    Let's say you live in only one room of the house. You can still take any darn gun you want to out in the yard...

    You're telling me that as an apartment dweller I can't walk to my own mailbox with my firearm by my side? I don't think so Chester. I'll agree the street is off limits and arguably something like the apartment complex's office is off limits, but on the property I don't buy it.

    If it's illegal for me to step out of the front door with a concealed weapon, walk 10 feet down the sidewalk, and then walk 10 feet back inside, then a homeowner without a CCW is in legal trouble for taking it onto his driveway or onto the sidewalk that runs in front of his house.

    Show me a court case. Show me one. Prove me wrong.

    If I'm wrong then it's illegal to even have a gun in the apartment because you'd have to carry it in there somehow from outside, and if there's a gun in there already then it can never ever come out. See how silly that is?

    All that aside, get the permit if you can afford it. I lived for about a year and a half in post college squalor. I couldn't afford shoes much less a CCW permit.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Array BlueLion's Avatar
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    In regards to if he is in violation of his lease for having a firearm. Then oh well, no one has to know I would keep it real quite and go get my CCW. Secondly, the last thing I would be thinking of if the door comes in is. Man, if I squeeze off one will I lose my lease Breathe, stop, squeeze. nuff said.....
    Listen, Think and React.....Nuff Said.....

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZG23
    Also there may be provisions to his lease regarding firearms on lease property...Ive heard of it before, just food for thought.
    I'm pretty easy going, but I don't think I'd sign a lease that wouldn't allow me to have a firearm in my apartment. That would flat be a deal breaker!
    Rick

    EOD - Initial success or total failure

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    Member Array AZG23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueLion
    In regards to if he is in violation of his lease for having a firearm. Then oh well, no one has to know I would keep it real quite and go get my CCW. Secondly, the last thing I would be thinking of if the door comes in is. Man, if I squeeze off one will I lose my lease Breathe, stop, squeeze. nuff said.....
    It was merely a food for thought to promote getting the CCW...letting a neighbor see him, or talking to ones neighbors about it may suscept him to the issue.

    As for worrying about the lease before defending ones self...I would NEVER advocate it...I will not put residence or employment above life and family.NEVER.
    Brad B.

  13. #13
    Member Array AZG23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rstickle
    I'm pretty easy going, but I don't think I'd sign a lease that wouldn't allow me to have a firearm in my apartment. That would flat be a deal breaker!
    +1

    Glad Ive got a mortgage.
    Brad B.

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    Michigan is an open carry state.

    Michigan is an open carry state, no permit is required. The only problem is if he tries to go in his car from home to the store. Once you are in the care it is considered concealed and you need a permit.

    Check Packing.org and opencarry.org.

    Hope this helps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by d2thomas
    I have a question. My former roomate and friend who nows lives upstairs from me asked me a very intriquing question the other day. He bought a .380 pistol [browning I think] but doesn't have his CCW. He wants to carry around his apartment and on the property of the apartment complex. In reviewing the michigan law below, I told him I thought it was ok...tell me what you guys think.

    WEB SITE
    "750.227 Concealed weapons; carrying; penalty. Sec. 227.

    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
    The statute is only the beginning. You also need to know about the case law. That said, the phrase "in his or her dwelling house" will have a specific legal meaning.

    Generally speaking (I am not familiar with the Michigan particulars), that phrase would only include those spaces where the person has sole control - i.e. inside a leased apartment. When you move out into a public area, where others have a lawful right to be, you move out of the dwelling exclusion.

    At least, that is how I read the statute you provided.

    I agree with what has been said above - your friend should obtain a CCW permit, and then there are no worries.

    Matt

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