Will USSC 2A decision facilitate reciprocity laws?

This is a discussion on Will USSC 2A decision facilitate reciprocity laws? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Just curious how many think the terrific USSC decision will facilitate (or even force) reciprocity agreements between additional states? I live in New England and ...

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Thread: Will USSC 2A decision facilitate reciprocity laws?

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    Senior Member Array Chevy-SS's Avatar
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    Will USSC 2A decision facilitate reciprocity laws?

    Just curious how many think the terrific USSC decision will facilitate (or even force) reciprocity agreements between additional states?

    I live in New England and it's a real PITA to cross state lines while CCW. The laws are complex and confusing, plus the state lines are very close, so it's easy to have to cross a state line while driving somewhere.
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    Distinguished Member Array Tally XD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chevy-SS View Post
    Just curious how many think the terrific USSC decision will facilitate (or even force) reciprocity agreements between additional states?

    I live in New England and it's a real PITA to cross state lines while CCW. The laws are complex and confusing, plus the state lines are very close, so it's easy to have to cross a state line while driving somewhere.
    Not sure on that but what today brought us was affirmation of what we already believed of our Constitution.
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    I don't think any impact results, since reciprocity is a function of state law.
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    Senior Member Array 1911luver's Avatar
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    No but this is a real victory for us

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    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Yeah, I'm pretty happy about Heller but they DID NOT incorporate it under the 14th Amendment which in essence only guarantees the right under the Bill of Rights insofar as the Federal Government is concerned. Basically it does not overturn the 20,000 local and state gun laws that still ban weapons in cities like Morton Grove, IL. The reason that NRA is launching all these lawsuits right now is to drain the antis of cash that they could use in the general election on behalf of OBAMANATION.
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    Member Array JimThomas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911luver View Post
    No but this is a real victory for us
    I don't think it will do anything for recips and I'm not convinced it was much of a victory.

    The 2nd ammendment is very clearly stated. DC was clearly in violation. That's all they needed to say. As far as I can tell from scotusblog.com, the court only really upheld the right of a non-felon to keep a handgun or musket in their home after going through some registration process.

    SCOTUSblog » Heller quotes from the majority - opinion is linked in the next post

    “Thus, we do not read the Second Amendment to protect the right of citizens to carry arms for any sort of confrontation, just as we do not read the First Amendment to protect the right of citizens to speak for any purpose.”
    Our later decisions in Presser v. Illinois, 116 U. S. 252, 265 (1886) and Miller v. Texas, 153 U. S. 535, 538 (1894), reaffirmed that the Second Amendment applies only to the Federal Government.” (48, footnote 23)
    “We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. Miller said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those ‘in common use at the time.’ 307 U. S., at 179.”
    "Assuming that Heller is not disqualified from the exercise of Second Amendment rights, the District must permit him to register his handgun and must issue him a license to carry it in the home.”
    I can't get too excited about that. I still need to read the whole thing, but I'm not excited. And this business of people claiming the 2nd ammendment was not an individual right... well, those people were either stupid or pretending to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    Yeah, I'm pretty happy about Heller but they DID NOT incorporate it under the 14th Amendment which in essence only guarantees the right under the Bill of Rights insofar as the Federal Government is concerned. Basically it does not overturn the 20,000 local and state gun laws that still ban weapons in cities like Morton Grove, IL. The reason that NRA is launching all these lawsuits right now is to drain the antis of cash that they could use in the general election on behalf of OBAMANATION.
    Agreed, since DC is not a state.

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    Senior Member Array rmilchman's Avatar
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    CC do not carry for a confrontation, they cary for self defense / self preservation. A play on words, possibly.

    In any way could this ruling negate a states ability to deny CC?

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    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    Yeah, I'm pretty happy about Heller but they DID NOT incorporate it under the 14th Amendment which in essence only guarantees the right under the Bill of Rights insofar as the Federal Government is concerned.
    As it should be. Incorporation is not part of the Fourteenth and there is no Constitutional authority to force the states to adhere to the Federal Constitution in the areas not specifically mandated. It's a states rights issue.

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    The exposure that this ruling gets will be good for us in the long. Some of our citizens could care less one way or another about guns but because of the coverage that we'll have in the next few days some might actually act on this right and now feel comfortable in owning a handgun.
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    Senior Member Array press1280's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmilchman View Post
    CC do not carry for a confrontation, they cary for self defense / self preservation. A play on words, possibly.

    In any way could this ruling negate a states ability to deny CC?
    I doubt it, however equal protection i.e. celebrities or well connected people getting CCW and average Joes denied for "lack of justifiable need," might be more appropriate.
    "The right of the whole people, old and young, men, women and boys, and not militia only, to keep and bear arms of every description, not such merely as are used by the militia, shall not be infringed, curtailed, or broken in upon, in the smallest degree..."
    Nunn v. State GA 1848

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    Member Array edw8ri's Avatar
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    Here is my take on Heller;

    It could have been better. It could have been worse. What is says is that the 2nd Amendment protects an individual right, at least in the context of self defense and that the DC gun ban violated that right. But the DC ban was one of the most extreme gun control laws in the country. That is one reason it was chosen for a test case. DC is also a federal city and not a state. That is another reason it was chosen.

    The first unanswered question is whether the 2nd Amendment applies to the states. It may be unlawful for the federal government to ban guns, but that does not mean it is unlawful for a state to do so.The Bill of Rights did not apply to the states when adopted. The 14th Amendment, intended to protect newly freed slaves, that says, in part "...no State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States." Over time, that has come to be understood to mean most of the rights in the Bill of Rights. Naturally, there has never been a 2nd Amendment case on this.

    The second question is how closely is this right recognized in Heller is tied to self defense. In Heller, the case is all about people who want a handgun in the house for protection against the populous of D.C. Frankly, I would want a couple of black rifles, some riot guns, and explosive devices. But is this right going to apply to firearms in situations that do not involve personal security, such as shooting skeet, or quail, or IDPA?

    The third question is how much regulation of firearms is permissible. Dicta in the case provide that the decision does not upset long standing restrictions preventing criminals and lunatics from owning guns nor does it affect restrictions on firearms in places like government buildings and schools. Okay, but how far does that go. I am not an advocate for armed lunatics, but it is entirely possible to create restrictions that have the effect of effect of banning guns, even if they do not expressly do so. Imagine a law that says no gun can be brought within a thousand yards of any school, church, government office, day care center or medical treatment facility. Then try to figure out how you would get your 1911 from your house to the range.

    The fourth question is what level of scrutiny the courts should apply to restrictions of 2nd Amendment rights. Will it be the "strict scrutiny" that is used in most 1st Amendment cases or a lesser level? The Supreme Court has three levels that is uses in various types of cases. Almost no restriction passes the highest level. Almost nothing fails the lowest level. So this is pretty important.

    I think that the decision is good, but there is still lots of room for the anti-gunners to maneuver. And future Supreme Courts can justify all kinds of restrictions within the framework Heller creates. Obama should get two appointments, maybe three. The next decision may not be so well received by the NRA.
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    VIP Member Array cphilip's Avatar
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    I don't believe the second amendment is "State by State". I think this is far reaching into the "Individual right" and precludes states from it as well. It establishes a "pre existing individual right". And then it clarifies what State really means in the context of this right.

    c. Meaning of the Operative Clause. Putting all of
    these textual elements together, we find that they guaran-
    tee the individual right to possess and carry weapons in
    case of confrontation. This meaning is strongly confirmed
    by the historical background of the Second Amendment.
    We look to this because it has always been widely under-
    stood that the Second Amendment, like the First and
    Fourth Amendments, codified a pre-existing right. The
    very text of the Second Amendment implicitly recognizes
    the pre-existence of the right and declares only that it
    “shall not be infringed.” As we said in United States v.
    Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542, 553 (1876), “[t]his is not a right
    granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner
    dependent upon that instrument for its existence. The
    Second amendment declares that it shall not be infringed
    . . . .”16



    b. “Security of a Free State.” The phrase “security of
    a free state” meant “security of a free polity,” not security
    of each of the several States as the dissent below argued,
    see 478 F. 3d, at 405, and n. 10. Joseph Story wrote in his
    treatise on the Constitution that “the word ‘state’ is used
    in various senses [and in] its most enlarged sense, it
    means the people composing a particular nation or com-
    munity.”


    this is all quite huge. It not only declares it is an individual right to not only own but to carry for purposes of defense but it establishes it as a universal right of all. Everywhere.

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    I don't believe the second amendment is "State by State".
    Agreed, but the reciprocity statutes are an animal of state law.
    Richard

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    "You may think I'm pompous, but actually I'm pedantic... let me explain the difference."

    "Carry the battle to them. Don't let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive and don't ever apologize for anything."

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    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cphilip View Post
    this is all quite huge. It not only declares it is an individual right to not only own but to carry for purposes of defense but it establishes it as a universal right of all. Everywhere.
    It has always been a God given right. That does not mean that it cannot be infringed on by the people of states which protection of the right is not embedded in their respective constitutions.

    Although it is a good and right opinion, it is not huge in any sense other than it overturns DC's complete gun ban.

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