CCW, Security Guard requests license? - Page 3

CCW, Security Guard requests license?

This is a discussion on CCW, Security Guard requests license? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I had a security guard ask for mine and then she said she would arrest me if I didn't. This was well into our encounter ...

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Thread: CCW, Security Guard requests license?

  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array Agave's Avatar
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    I had a security guard ask for mine and then she said she would arrest me if I didn't. This was well into our encounter and I believed that she would attempt to confiscate it so I refused to show her. Guess what. She didn't arrest me and the police said called her dumb.
    The preceding post may contain sarcasm; it's just better that way. However, it is still intended with construction and with the Love of my L-rd Y'shua.

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  2. #32
    VIP Member Array Superhouse 15's Avatar
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    Best Buy

    Do any old timers remember a discussion about a guy who got stopped in Best Buy and accused of shoplifting? The guard/ loss prevention wanted to see his CCW and take his firearm, he refused, called 911 himself, and eventually won a settlement from BB. I looked but can't seem to find it.

    IIRC, there was a lively discussion about it on one of the forums, but it might have been Packing dot org.

  3. #33
    Member Array johnsr's Avatar
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    A real commissioned S.O. in Texas will be in Uniform, With his companys I.D. patch very visable. His name tag Visible, and his Weapon Very visible. He will have been trained by a state approved Security training officer. as req by the state. He is not a felon and has no arrests on his record that would disqualify him in any way. Most S.O.s I know are retired military, LEOs or soon to be LEOs or Univ students working part time. It aint easy to get to be a Comm Security Officer in Texas. You wont be asked by most of them to show your ccw. Most of them will have already called in the P.D. if they Made you, and you can show your ccw to the nice uniformed Police Officer. ..

  4. #34
    Array SIXTO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superhouse 15 View Post
    Do any old timers remember a discussion about a guy who got stopped in Best Buy and accused of shoplifting? The guard/ loss prevention wanted to see his CCW and take his firearm, he refused, called 911 himself, and eventually won a settlement from BB. I looked but can't seem to find it.

    IIRC, there was a lively discussion about it on one of the forums, but it might have been Packing dot org.
    I vaguely remember that, it was very similar to my situation.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  5. #35
    Member Array ispcapt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogrunner View Post
    Well, ISP Capt.....That depends on just precisely WHAT type of ID that the man'd present to me.......
    Well dogrunner - if you check the USSC court ruling from the mid 1970s you'll find that a LEO in uniform has presented all the ID he has to show you. If you do a bit of research then you'll find that the USSC has recognized that an officer in uniform is the required ID and they ruled that the assumption is the person is a person of authority.
    How would you know what a real ID really looks like? Just about every agency in the US issues their own style of ID so no 2 are the same. What do you want to do then, call their supervisor? Or maybe then the chief? And then the mayor? How would you know he's showing you an ID and what the ID means? Demanding showing an ID card is just begging to get into a wee-wee contest because he could show you anything and you wouldn't have the faintest clue what it means.
    So if you want to play hardball then expect them to play hardball. In the end you're the one who ends up with all the grief and they just go about doing their job another day. What you should do instead of spouting off what you think you'll do you should do a bit of legal research and talk to a good defense attorney to get a good legal basis. So far what you proclaim you'll do could end up getting you a whole lot of expensive legal problems simply because what you think isn't what the courts have ruled. But if it makes you feel good to talk the big talk then have at it. Some people are slow learners and have to learn the hard way instead of doing their homework ahead of time.
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  6. #36
    VIP Member Array David in FL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TN_Mike View Post
    +1 Same here.

    Because I am under no legal obligation to do so and because I will hand no piece of ID to anyone other than a LEO. Why in the world would you have your permit to some shlub making minimum wage who may very well have a felony record? (a lot of security guards have felony record by the way)
    My permit is more improtant to me than my DL, so I will hand it to no one who is not an honest-to-God police officer.
    If the security guard is a moonlighting police officer, then he gets a heck of a lot more respect. Other wise, he can ask me to leave and I will do so immediately, no questions asked and no fuss. But he isn't getting his hands on my permit and he is not disarming me under any circumstances.

    Wow......I've got nuthin' here. No one said anything about disarming or giving up your permit. What does legal obligation have to do with responding to a polite request? Why the hate for SG's? Again, assuming polite and professional, as the great majority are........ I just don't get it.

  7. #37
    VIP Member Array Paco's Avatar
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    I agree with Kerb's take. If it is a nudge, nudge "you do have your license, right?" then I might say yes, and inquire what gave it away, an then go fix it. But if it is a mall ninja and comes to me with attitude I would most likely inform him I don't need to show him proof and then offer to call the LEO myself with him right there, I bet it stops at that.

    I also never meant this to be any shot (no pun intended, I promise) at SG, they have a job and I do appreciate what they do, even if there is a number of them that are just an empty belt with OC spray, even if they deter 1 wrong act then they have succeeded.
    "Don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep." - Theodore Roosevelt


  8. #38
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    I don't know... Sometimes I seem to think there are some who are walking around carrying a gun (ccw or otherwise), who also seem to have some sort of chip on their shoulders with regards to anyone who stops them for the least little reason.

    I'm assuming a lot of these folks must have had several bad experiences carrying their gun or something. Then again, some may just have some authority issues. JMHO based on how I read some of the posts I come across. Maybe I'm way off base, and if so, certainly I offer my profound apologies.

    I carry concealed. Never open carry. I carry everywhere I am legal to do so, therefore, I'm carrying all the time. I'm used to carrying all the time and because of that, I don't spend every conscious second of my life saying to myself "am I showing... am I printing?"

    I take more than an appropriate amount of care ensuring that I dress appropriately and that my cover garments are adequate. However I'm also aware that those who carry darn near 24/7, from time to time... and on rare occasion, may accidentally "flash" their piece. A sudden gust of wind or snagging an unbuttoned light cover garment on some object causing your weapon to appear for a moment is not unreasonable to expect.

    As far as I'm concerned, courtesy goes both ways. If I am in some store and some person who identifies them self as "store security" and asks if I am a ccw holder and asks to see my permit... I have to assume that for some reason, they "spotted" my weapon. Now whether they are a mall ninja, or off duty "certified LEO with actual powers of arrest" moonlighting as private security really doesn't make much of a difference as far as I'm concerned. They are there to provide security for the store and protect the stores inventory. And as far as I'm concerned, they have a sucky job too, but that's another issue.

    More than likely, I will say something along the lines of "well yes I am a permit holder, why do you ask?" If they state that they saw my weapon or some customer saw my weapon and that they are just verifying... I see no reason not to show my ccw permit and continue on my way.

    How I act is going to be based on their behavior, and how they act. Everyone being polite and just trying to do their job, no harm, no foul.

    Now, I ain't no and I am not going to be manhandled or stand there and be brow beat or chided by some security guard for some honest mistake on my part... a momentary flash of my weapon, but I see no harm in showing a store employee that I am in fact a card carrying, legal ccw permit holder in order to keep the peace and not creating a larger incident. (also, any stranger approaches me for any type of interaction, I immediately go from condition yellow, to condition orange, so I'm not gonna be standing there with my hands in my pockets lollygagging in condition white. I'm prepared to respond accordingly.)

    Now, I'm not going to just hand them my permit. It's not going to leave my physical possession, but if all they want to do is verify that I am a legal permit holder because someone saw my gun, then why push the issue and create a scene by sticking out my chest, challenging their authority, quoting legal statute, or any number of other things that will naturally cause a scene and make the situation worse.

    There maybe over 300 million firearms in this country and maybe over 1/2 of all homes in this country possess one or more firearms... but the fact is that ccw holders are in the minority folks. Last I heard, less than 3% of each states population holds a ccw permit. Even a state like Florida, I don't think it's over 5%. I would say that walking around your average J.C. Penney's nearly 1/2 of the would actually wet their pants and become nauseous if they knew that maybe 2 or 3 people walking among them were carrying a gun.

    I just don't see the need to hassle some poor Joe/Jane security guard/manager over showing a legal document if that's gonna keep the peace.

    JMHO YMMV. BTW... I carry a cell phone! I can always call the police to resolve the situation if need be.
    Semper Fi

    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  9. #39
    Member Array DarinD's Avatar
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    My Apologies SilenceDoGood. I hope you know that there was no offense intended. I just saw it at the time as a very thankless job.
    Life is too short, stop to smell the roses and don't let anyone take it away from you!

  10. #40
    Distinguished Member Array 4my sons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
    Interesting. We clearly have differing viewpoints on this one. My perspective is that he would have no reason to ask unless he had already determined that I was carrying. Seems to me that he's probably trying to verify that I'm doing so legally, rather than simply calling in the police to deal with the "man with a gun".......

    If showing my ccw to him helps him do his job and move on, keeps some cop from wasting his time, and potentially keeps my day from being disrupted, I guess I just don't see it as a big deal.

    Thanks for the response though.
    I see your point, I'm not trying to make trouble with anyone, or cause a scene, there was a thread some time ago about the average joe citizen asking to see your permit, as far as I"m concerned, if he isn't a bonnified police officer, (no disrespect to any SG on here) he is an average joe that I don't know, same would go for any store manager, if they are stopping me with the idea of theft, I'll discretely show them that any bulge isn't anything they sell, after that, they have no right to question me any further. I'll leave if they make a big deal about it. They have no police authority or powers. Hey, I know it's their property, if they don't like me, I'll leave.

    As for other post asking how we got to that point, well my son, playing, lifted my shirt in an auto parts store one time, I'm sure a couple of people got a good view. $*!^ happens. Sometimes we have to deal with it. I believe that was the OP's intent.
    "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." [Warren v. District of Columbia,(D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981)]
    If I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand

  11. #41
    PM is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by ispcapt View Post
    Some are, and some are LEOs moonlighting on the side. Even if the LEO is moonlighting as a security guard they still have the full LE authority. Either way, whether he's a security guard as his only job or a LEO working some extra hours they're both hired to do a job by their employer and that job is to ensure the safety of everyone in that establishment.
    The questions to the OP:
    Is the security guy in this situation a wannabee or is he a LEO moonlighting?
    Just how much do you really want to push the issue?
    How much headache do you want in life?
    What your problem with showing ID?
    If the rent-a-cop is an LEO and has his/her LEO card on them (ie proof they are a LEO and not a civilian in a uniform then I have no choice but I would argue that the LEO is a bit out of legal justification; yes I know and LEO is on duty 24/7/365!

  12. #42
    Member Array JimThomas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ispcapt View Post
    Demanding showing an ID card is just begging to get into a wee-wee contest because he could show you anything and you wouldn't have the faintest clue what it means.
    So if you want to play hardball then expect them to play hardball
    Wow. I don't really know what to say. I understand that some citizens can be difficult, but I still expect police officers to be professionals. None of them should be getting into a "wee-wee contest" or playing "hardball." I can't expect professional behavior from any yahoo on the street, but I think it's entirely appropriate to expect professional conduct from police officers.

  13. #43
    Member Array dogrunner's Avatar
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    Which is precisely why I said one ought to demand a police supervisor be requested to the scene. First if the officer is in a PD uniform, then there IS no issue............Certainly there exists a very real question should that SO be in plain clothes or for that matter in a uniform that is NOT a law enforcment one.

    A rude and heavy handed demand from someone so attired would certainly result in a formal any event the result would accomplish some attitude adjustment on the guards part......sworn or not!

  14. #44
    Member Array hpj3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tros View Post
    Private property laws vary from state to state; the Security Officer/Guard/ETC has every legal right to ask to see your permit; you have every legal right not to show it... They also have the legal right to instruct you to leave their property at that very moment of you giving them a reason to think something isn't right...
    With that said, whether or not you do have it you will more than likely be asked to leave the property for making the security's job un-needingly harder (Which typically means you were giving the S.O. a lip full); not only that, but if you refuse to show your permit, and they know you're carrying there are two things that come to mind; 1. You aren't good at CCW... 2. When they call the PD, the radio will come across that there is a subject with an unbrandished weapon refusing to work with security, and he refuses to leave (Criminal Trepassing... In other words, PD is going to be in a hurry to the call).

    Long story short, you don't have to, but to avoid any sort of issue, it'd be much easier to show them.

    Firstly, please do not make such broad generalizations. The laws re security guards vary widely state-to-state, and, even more confusing, within many states depending on type of position. In SC you only have to show your permit to LEO. Private security may ask, (No "legal" right) and you may choose to do so, but it is not a legal requirement. The specific circumstances would dictate appropriate action...

    As for (1) above - being a little arrogant here? "You aren't good at CCW"? If you've never had an accident, then my guess is that you have and just never been caught...

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor
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  15. #45
    Senior Member Array Ragin Cajun's Avatar
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    I would show it to avoid any futher issues. As I said "Show It". I would not hand it over because if he thinks he is jonny law, which they are not, and decides he is going to hold onto it until the cops come, then I have another issue.

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