Mindset - Are you a Sheepdog? - Page 2

Mindset - Are you a Sheepdog?

This is a discussion on Mindset - Are you a Sheepdog? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I think I have the anology memorized. I loved it when Grossman first used it and beat myself upon the head for not thinking of ...

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Thread: Mindset - Are you a Sheepdog?

  1. #16
    Member Array jmiked's Avatar
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    I think I have the anology memorized. I loved it when Grossman first used it and beat myself upon the head for not thinking of it. I bow to a faster mind.

    I got to make the choice one dark night while I was still in Uniform and was able to clear the situation with one phrase, "They shot First."

    A sheepdog does what HAS to be done, no more no lest!
    William Wallace
    Do not stand between Me and Mine!!


  2. #17
    Distinguished Member Array Squawker's Avatar
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    I loved the entire thing, and reading the article referenced by Randy, there was one paragraph that really hit home-

    "If you are a warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be “on” 24/7 for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself... “Baa.” "

    My gun is now like the American Express commercial- I don't leave home without it!

  3. #18
    Member Array JimThomas's Avatar
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    I like a lot of that, but not all of it. For one, I don't like it when people are called sheep, because it's usually done in pejorative manner. I can understand and appreciate the sheepdog analogy, though. I particularly agree on how the sheepdog can scare the sheep.

    But this...

    Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports, in camouflage fatigues, holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, 'Baa.' Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.
    Sheep usually don't need traffic tickets. People are not so stupid that they continue to press on the accelerator until they die. Speed limits are set artificially low in many cases. I'm no sheep, and I'd still prefer not to have military in airports.

    On Columbine...

    When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them.
    What? That wasn't sheep dogging. The police (not sheep dogs) allowed the wolves to do whatever they liked. There were people there who could have met the threat, and they chose not to.

    I'm going to send this article to some people, but I won't be able to do it without commenting on the Columbine stuff. That just doesn't belong in that article at all. It's really one of the worst examples possible. Of course those kids were clinging and sobbing. By all indications, a response was never going to happen.

  4. #19
    Senior Member Array gilraen's Avatar
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    That was a wonderful letter. I hope the young woman read it.

    I, too, have problems with the analogy. It's just too easy for the sheepdog to assume a moral superiority, and brand the sheep as "too stupid" or "deserve what they get".

    It's not just on this board that I see it. Hopefully this is a minority opinion, but minority or not, it seems to come across pretty often.

    Gilraen -- trekking this new path, and not wanting either beginning or ending place to be dissed....
    "I pledge allegiance to the war banner of the united states of Totalitaria. And to the Republic, which no longer stands, several bankers, who are now god, indivisible, with Bernanke bucks and credit for all."

  5. #20
    Member Array Randy's Avatar
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    If you haven't, you need to see his entire presentation in person. It is well worth the time.

    What? That wasn't sheep dogging. The police (not sheep dogs) allowed the wolves to do whatever they liked. There were people there who could have met the threat, and they chose not to.
    The police personnel followed their agency's policy during Columbine. That policy was to establish a perimeter and call for the swat guys. In short, they did what they were supposed to do and, at the same time, did not do what they arguably should have done.

    Police are reactive in nature. That is, the employed tactics do not change until they are found not to work in a particular situation. This also puts them "behind the curve" in the action / reaction sense.

    For example, "establish a perimeter and call swat" works if you have a situation where an individual has simply taken hostages. This model doesn't work when the individual isn't taking hostages, but instead, is killing everyone he can as fast as he can.

    The term "active shooter" came from what was learned at Columbine and, as a result, police tactics have been modified to something they believe will better handle future situations of this type.

    Randy

  6. #21
    Member Array JimThomas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy View Post
    The police personnel followed their agency's policy during Columbine. That policy was to establish a perimeter and call for the swat guys. In short, they did what they were supposed to do and, at the same time, did not do what they arguably should have done.
    Sure, but police aren't policy following robots any more than civilians are sheep who need police to guide their every move. Tons of things are handled at the discretion of individual police or police agencies. While I can somewhat agree with your sentiment, I don't feel that excerpt belonged in an article praising police response.

    I also don't think it was fair to those victims. Who expected more of those kids, and how could they expect more of them? CCW holders can be imprisoned for going near schools with a gun, and I'm pretty sure it's certain expulsion for students.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy View Post
    For example, "establish a perimeter and call swat" works if you have a situation where an individual has simply taken hostages. This model doesn't work when the individual isn't taking hostages, but instead, is killing everyone he can as fast as he can.

    The term "active shooter" came from what was learned at Columbine and, as a result, police tactics have been modified to something they believe will better handle future situations of this type.
    It's my understanding that SWAT didn't go toward the threat, and found the shooters dead more than 3 hours later. In a case like that, a perimeter keeps real sheep dogs out until things settle down.

    Now, I'm not calling these people cowards, as I don't know that to be true. I'm just saying that situation had no place in what was otherwise a pretty good article, and painting those students as some sort of sniffling sissy sheep was just wrong.

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array rodc13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy View Post
    The term "active shooter" came from what was learned at Columbine and, as a result, police tactics have been modified to something they believe will better handle future situations of this type. Randy
    The response wasn't much different in result at Virginia Tech. It wasn't the police who ended the threat there.
    Cheers,
    Rod
    "We're paratroopers. We're supposed to be surrounded!" Dick Winters

  8. #23
    Member Array jonesy_26's Avatar
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    I have to agree with some here who dislike the sheep/sheepdog mentality. I've seen this article 3 or 4 times now, and while I do get the point the author was trying to make (whomever he is), I get the sense that while its mentioned there is nothing wrong with being a sheep, there is an awful lot of negative dicsussion on what the sheep do and don't do(really, its OK that you are docile and oblivious, you were just born that way). And villanizing the poor wolf is old territory.....there are few animals that can be admired more for their puracy.

    I don't need to "walk the warrior's path" to protect my family or anyone else I choose. Its a bunch or romanticized hogwash. Yes, you have to have the proper mindset to do certain things like carry a gun and use it for defense, its not for everyone.

    I've found people are either unaware, aware, aware and prepared, or bad guys. I'd like to think that I am aware and prepared.

  9. #24
    Member Array TravisABQ's Avatar
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    Look, analogies can be useful, but every analogy has its limitations.

    What especially irks me about this particular analogy, is that while it was originally geared to police officers, it is used over and over by guys to puff up their machismo, and assert (oh so humbly) that they are not just prepared to defend themselves, and their families, but that they are delegated to be an elite protector of all people around them.

    The more someone talks about it, the less I believe that the big talker has the training or the moxie to survive just a threat to himself, and his own. Never mind "protecting the sheep".

    There is nothing wrong with taking to heart a "warrior mentality." Study Bushido, build your courage and moral foundation, but please, PLEASE, don't adopt some jargon and then embarass yourself in swagger-talk to people who don't carry or even lock their doors.

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array Scot Van's Avatar
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    Woof!
    A man in the hands of his enemies is flesh, and shudderingly vulnerable. - author unknown

  11. #26
    Senior Member Array cwblanco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TravisABQ View Post
    The more someone talks about it, the less I believe that the big talker has the training or the moxie to survive just a threat to himself, and his own. Never mind "protecting the sheep".

    There is nothing wrong with taking to heart a "warrior mentality." Study Bushido, build your courage and moral foundation, but please, PLEASE, don't adopt some jargon and then embarass yourself in swagger-talk to people who don't carry or even lock their doors.
    We must remember the purpose of the original speech. As I recall it was given at one of the military academies. The transition from sheep mentality to warrior mentality is not always that easy. To a large extent this mentality can be taught and learned. Those who went through military basic training years ago may recall bayonet training where the men were taught to yell "Kill!" while punching the dummy with the bayonet. In fact, this was the actual use of the "swagger-talk" to stear the men into the warrior mentality.

    On the other hand, using this jargon among civilians does make one seem silly. Perhaps the balance lies in this group where the motto of many is "Always conceal -- Never tell!"

  12. #27
    Member Array cl00bie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilraen View Post
    I, too, have problems with the analogy. It's just too easy for the sheepdog to assume a moral superiority, and brand the sheep as "too stupid" or "deserve what they get".
    In this context, no. I know that I don't feel any moral superiority. The ones who do are the ones who can. However, the term "sheep" is used on this forum as a term of derision. However it does get frustrating when someone wants to carry the tools to protect him or herself from the wolf needs to have the fangs pulled because it scares the sheep.

    We need better educated sheep.
    -Tony

    "Those who beat their guns into plowshares will plow for those who didn't." -- Thomas Jefferson

  13. #28
    Senior Member Array Bob O's Avatar
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    I'm not a sheep, nor a wolf, nor a sheepdog.

    I am just a plain old dog. My main functions are lazing around as much as possible, sleeping, and eating.

    I prefer peace and quite and as little work as possible. An occasional "atta boy" and/or rub is welcomed also.

    Just don't threaten me or mine - if you do I become a wolf for as long as necessary!!!

    Bobo
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other"
    ~John Adams

  14. #29
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    I believe I am a sheepdog. Everyone I know will tell you that I am absolutely a sheepdog.

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array JerryM's Avatar
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    I don't think about it one way or the other.
    I suspect some "sheep dogs" are not really so when the chips are down, but that is for them to learn, and hopefully will not have to do so.

    In some cases the word "sheep" is used here derisively. I know a lot of folks who do not carry, and are not "sheep" as such. Three who come to mind are retired; Border Patrol Officer, State Police Officer, and Marine. They have been where most here will not have to go, and some would not do nearly as well.

    Regards,
    Jerry

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