As A Military Police Officer Why.....

This is a discussion on As A Military Police Officer Why..... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Well, I don't know the laws in America, but to me it doesn't seem odd that you need to take the CCW course to be ...

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Thread: As A Military Police Officer Why.....

  1. #31
    Member Array Sig sauer's Avatar
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    Well, I don't know the laws in America, but to me it doesn't seem odd that you need to take the CCW course to be able to CCW.

    When a Police officer is off duty, he can still act: When doing so and identify himself, he is a police officer.

    But if you carry off duty, like a ccw, your are no longer a Military police. If you choose to act off duty, you do it as a ccw. Therefor I see the need for you to take the course. I would assume that the shooting won't be the problem, but there must be some ccw laws that you need to go through.

    Anyway, I don't see the problem with taking the course.

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Again...in Virginia...for active duty, reserve, retired, or former members...all you need to receive your CHP is your ID card (AD/Res) or DD214 (retired & former members) as proof of training.

    If you choose to get additional training, more power to you. In my experience, between reading the applicable VA codes, discussion on boards such as these, and being active in local grassroots organizations (like VCDL) has helped me more than anything. This kind of training is continuous...and gives you the ability to pass on your knowledge to the next person.

    There is no guarentee the money you pay is worth someone else's opinion if you can read the statutes themselves.

    This is advice is directed to those who have experience around guns/shooting...not novice shooters. I highly recommend novice shooters to seek out training accordingly.
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  4. #33
    New Member Array mattw's Avatar
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    Ok first off thanks for the info everyone gave, second to all the nice people who tell me the law is different i am very aware of this and i agree that the laws are very very different but i pointed out in my lil speech that a cop would do the same thing as a mp in a certain situation.
    Depending on the circumstances, that will always generate better results then spur of the moment what would you do in a situation rather then what im going to do. Think about the options you have, before you react, say for instances the guy is simple going to take the money and walk, let him, there is no risk in putting you or anyone in danger i am fully aware of this scenario. As i am fully aware that the laws for MP's and LE are way different, but they are all made on the same basis, if it looks wrong it probably is.
    That dose not give me the rite to act as if i am governing the law to civi's just because i have a ccw it in all reality doesn't give me the rite to govern anyone except myself. I think some where it got mixed up that i was. I do not think i am know more than the LE in fact im sure i don't. I feel a little let down by the system because of that old song serve my country blah blah blah lol..
    Oh and last but not least i am well aware of the fact that i do not know everything. I feel i know enough that the slacked laws in VA would not be as difficult if not easier for someone with my training to be able to carry, I mean i have seen people get a ccw that do not need it, and yes i do see the side that people say if you take the class you may learn something new i agree knowledge is power the more you have the more power you have, that i agree 100% on, but it's not that i do not want to take the class, or in all reality that i need to im not saying this, i am simply stating i don't see why it is necessary when the class is only 30 mins long!
    what kind of block of instruction that could be useful is 30 mins long i have safety briefings that last longer, in all reality im just fed up with the way things work, good ol boys club in all is a little messed up way off life, i know this first hand, i grew up in the city only to move to the country where i don't know anyone well enough for that effect.
    Not that i care just i see the world in a different light then most, and i thank it's messed up way of life lol just my opinion. That is off topic however, oh and to the person who made the post about being a soldier first than an MP, i have not forgotten that, i was in a combat support unit for 4 years before moving to where i am currently, and in a CS unit we don't do LE we only do combat training and support, i have seen both sides of that and to tell you the truth i like the CS more than the LE side of it.
    I wanna thank everyone again for there great input it will help me along my way of understanding this more and deciding in the end what i am going to do.




    Oh and the poll question is not in regards to the topic lol it is my own generated poll i wish to see what people think about it, me personal i choose better training because it can't hurt. Sorry if this confused anyone more than my post actually did lol have a good night every one...........


    Oh and for the LE officials out there im glad your there because if no one did your job who would be there.

    Thanks for the support. I feel i don't need as much support as some of the other troops do, i have seen what they go threw, they need it more than i do, but thanks again.
    Last edited by rocky; July 20th, 2008 at 11:42 PM. Reason: edited for language workaround



  5. #34
    New Member Array mattw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    Again...in Virginia...for active duty, reserve, retired, or former members...all you need to receive your CHP is your ID card (AD/Res) or DD214 (retired & former members) as proof of training.

    If you choose to get additional training, more power to you. In my experience, between reading the applicable VA codes, discussion on boards such as these, and being active in local grassroots organizations (like VCDL) has helped me more than anything. This kind of training is continuous...and gives you the ability to pass on your knowledge to the next person.

    There is no guarentee the money you pay is worth someone else's opinion if you can read the statutes themselves.

    This is advice is directed to those who have experience around guns/shooting...not novice shooters. I highly recommend novice shooters to seek out training accordingly.
    True because a untrained shooter is worse than a trained shooter any day.. lol and this is my first time hearing of VCDL i will check them out and thanks again.

  6. #35
    Member Array Puppy's Avatar
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    This is a bit off the topic, but not really. Recently a shooting friend brought his son, a career soldier to the range. He freaked out when he learned that CCL guys carry one in the "pipe". He said that was totally against Army safety rules.

    I pointed out that in civilian SD the good guy rarely had an advantage over the BG because he "knew" what he planned and we did not. Therefore it only made sense not to have to take the extra time and step to "rack one."

    Taking a class may bring out some other important things you did not learn in the military.

  7. #36
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Puppy...
    As far as Army rules for carrying chambered...has this guy not been outside the wire in Iraq or Afghanistan? or was he a Fobbit?
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  8. #37
    New Member Array mattw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    Puppy...
    As far as Army rules for carrying chambered...has this guy not been outside the wire in Iraq or Afghanistan? or was he a Fobbit?
    My answer is simple you rack before you roll, you live by that or you and your brothers die for it, trust me i know that much, and the reason we don't carry one on in the tube on a normal non com day is for safety reason's but i will tell you one thing, and this a good rule of thumb everyone i work with follows if you pull someone over in the middle of the night and in the middle of no where you rack one before you get out the car be smart and safe, not dumb and careless. You never know how anyone is going to react anyone. If you get complacent in your duty's as a MP, Soldier, Cop, you get dead real fast.

  9. #38
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    The role of the MP and civilian LEO are very much the same, and yet very different. The point of the class has very little to do with firearms skills, but a lot to do with legal stuff. Legal mumbo jumbo that is very different between MP and civilian LEO.
    Further, a LEO is certified by his state to carry his gun along with the legal issues that go with it. Ohio says I passed all their requirements to carry a gun, much like they do a CCW.
    What state sanctions MP's? None. The federal government allows you to carry under their thumb and rules... I've been there too.
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  10. #39
    Member Array Divebum's Avatar
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    Personally, I think the local concealed carry course would be time and money well spent. It probably won't improve your weapons handling, but it will teach you about local laws and how you should react after a civilian firearms incident. I spent 24 years in the military. Shot everything from the old .38s to MP5 to AK-47/74. Received training from the US Army Marksmanship team and civilian courses. I'm very comfortable and fairly competent with handguns, but none of my training covered civilian concealed carry laws, civilian shoot-or-don't shoot scenarios, LE interaction while armed, or any number of other very important topics. Granted I was not military police, so perhaps you guys do cover these topics.

    Military carry and civilian CCW are two totally different environments. Whatever your local laws, I strongly encourage you to take advantage of the training. If for no other reason it will put the judge and jury in a more favorable position if you someday find yourself shooting someone in a civilian CCW situation. As the saying goes, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse."

    Civilian CCW is a huge responsibility and carries with it some very significant legal and financial ramifications if the jury thinks you screwed up.

    Quality training is never wasted, so take the class with an open mind. I'll bet you learn something.

  11. #40
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    Well, there is a lot of opinions that the man should take the civilian class, for personal enrichment if nothing else, but the fact remains that his state does accept his military service as good enough (apparently regardless of his MOS as an MP). There are countless CCWers from a big number of states that used their DD214s in lieu of a class. It doesn't make them bad people, it's just that most of us take what is required of us and no more. Maybe because of lack of time or resources or motivation. We are no better than the OP because we took the civilian class, because we were required to. If we were truly worried about learning that extra tidbit or 2 we'd take more classes all taught by different instructors. Certainly there is more for each of us to learn. Some of us do that, but I'll wager that greater than 90% of us take what our state requires and calls it a day. We then spend our money on range, ammo, more guns.

    I am of the opinion that everyone should take the civilian class, even if you only keep a firearm at home and don't carry. I truly hope that the OP (and anyone else that that packs) at least takes the time to STUDY their states' firearms and use of force laws, even if they take the class because the class cannot cover it all. But let's not come down on the guy for:

    a. Being frustrated at being told an un-truth instead of getting the truth or an "I don't know"

    and

    b. Wanting to get by with what is required, just like most of the rest of us have.

    Sorry for ranting, but it seems like we are giving this guy a hard time for being just like us.
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  12. #41
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    OK guys, news flash about VA there is NO STATE mandated training class, there are a variety of different classes that meet the requirement.

    A hunters safety certificate can be considered as a satisfactory training requirement.

    The two most common classes given are the NRA First Steps Pistol, and NRA Basic Pistol, neither cover VA Law.

    Some instructors give an "Advanced Concealed Carry" class which is basically the NRA classes followed by a short brief covering some law. But they are not lawyers, and it's not a solid curriculum, and it's not "approved" as the one, the only course by the state.

    I've met some "instructors" in my local area that are total idiots, filling their students up with so much BS it's sickening.



    The statement:

    local concealed carry course would be time and money well spent

    And others like it regarding VA are BS.

    Granted there are some courses out there that are worth the money,but they are few and far between.

    Again...in Virginia...for active duty, reserve, retired, or former members...all you need to receive your CHP is your ID card (AD/Res) or DD214 (retired & former members) as proof of training.

    If you choose to get additional training, more power to you. In my experience, between reading the applicable VA codes, discussion on boards such as these, and being active in local grassroots organizations (like VCDL) has helped me more than anything. This kind of training is continuous...and gives you the ability to pass on your knowledge to the next person.

    There is no guarentee the money you pay is worth someone else's opinion if you can read the statutes themselves.

    This is advice is directed to those who have experience around guns/shooting...not novice shooters. I highly recommend novice shooters to seek out training accordingly.

  13. #42
    Member Array celticredneck's Avatar
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    Mattw, you woludn't be in the Petersburg Va area, would you. My son lives there and is currently experiencing a problem with obtaining his permit. He has compleated the state requirements, and, it has been over 45 days since he turned in his carry application. He called the clerk of the court and asked about his application. He was told that CCW permit applications were backed up at the state level, and they didn't know when he would get it. The VA. concealed carry law clearly states that if the permit isn't issued or denied within 45 days, the applicant can obtain a certified copy of his (or her) application and said copy will serve as a CCW permit for 90 days, or until the real permit is approved or denied My son was told, by the clerk's office, that this is wrong and he could be arrested for carrying a concealed weapon if he tried to use his application as a carry permit.

    From the Va State Police website:

    If Your Application is Not Complete within 45 Days Return to list



    If the court has not issued the permit or determined that the applicant is disqualified within 45 days of the date of receipt noted on the application, the clerk shall certify on the application that the 45-day period has expired, and send a copy of the certified application to the applicant. The certified application shall serve as a de facto permit, which shall expire 90 days after issuance, and shall be recognized as a valid concealed handgun permit when presented with a valid government-issued photo identification until the court issues a five-year permit or finds the applicant to be disqualified. If the applicant is found to be disqualified after the de facto permit is issued, the applicant shall surrender the de facto permit to the court and the disqualification shall be deemed a denial of the permit and a revocation of the de facto permit. If the applicant is later found by the court to be disqualified after a five-year permit has been issued, the permit shall be.

    It is obvious that Petersburg has no clue what the law is, or, they just choose to ignore it. Incidentally, your comment about no one being stupid enough to hold up the PX on a military base isn't quite correct. Several years ago, there was a holdup on the Fort Lee Army base. It involved shotgun wielding holdup men robbing the soldiers in one of the barracks on base. It has been quite a few years ago(pre 9/11), so I don't remember all of the details.

  14. #43
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    Well, I've had my permit now for over 5 years. I'm taking a basic hand gun course this upcoming weekend. This course is 2 nights and a day at the range. I'm not required to, but doing so on my own because this course offers 3 hours of legal advise. I'm sure I'll learn something new too.

    If for nothing else, the laws you must follow off duty, off post are a lot different then the laws you have to follow on post so there may be things you could learn that might keep you from sitting in a civilian jail for a long time because you didn't know something and assumed since you are an MP that you were right.

    In Colorado, you can go to a 3 hour class and not shoot a gun to get a NRA certificate to get your permit. The class I'm taking gives the same certificate but is 19 hours long. I'm sure I'll something new and useful.

  15. #44
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    celticredneck...

    Have your son call the Clerk and find out what is taking so long. He should have a date stamped copy of his application--that serves as his permit until the county clerk mails it.

    Make sure he gets names and phone numbers and then contacts VCDL (VCDL.org) and let them know what shenanigans are happening.
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  16. #45
    Member Array celticredneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    celticredneck...

    Have your son call the Clerk and find out what is taking so long. He should have a date stamped copy of his application--that serves as his permit until the county clerk mails it.

    Make sure he gets names and phone numbers and then contacts VCDL (VCDL.org) and let them know what shenanigans are happening.
    He went down to the clerks office today, three times. Everyone he talked with was rude, and refused to listen to him, saying only that he had to talk with the clerk of the court, who would be in at 12 noon. My son waited until around 2PM and went back. The lady who talked with him that time said' "the clerk is at lunch, come back at 3:30. My son showed her a copy of the state police statement, concerning,"if you have not received your permit in 45 days" which I posted in my original post, and she informed him that it wasn't correct and not the way Petersburg handled it. When my son asked for her name, she refused to give it and said he had to see the clerk. He came back at 3:30 and talked with the clerk, that they had just gotten his background check back, and the 45 days started today. Not only that, but even if the application was to serve as a "defacto permit" it had to be signed by the judge, not the clerk, as is clearly stated on the Va State Police website. As of now, the VCDL has gotten involved and is planning on contacting the Chief Justice of the VA supreme court. When told about this, The clerk of the court told my son to go ahead and contact the chief justice, because he was a friend. Mods, I didn't mean to hijack this thread, I started this because the MP's situation sounded similar, and I wondered if Petersburg was involved. If possible, it would be better served if you could move it. Thank you.

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