Asked to do some heavy lifting...

This is a discussion on Asked to do some heavy lifting... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; A real good friend (and co worker) of mine came up to me at work Sunday and asked if I would be willing to help ...

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Thread: Asked to do some heavy lifting...

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array KevinDooley's Avatar
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    Asked to do some heavy lifting...

    A real good friend (and co worker) of mine came up to me at work Sunday and asked if I would be willing to help her sister move out of her apartment and away from an abusive husband Sunday afternoon. She said that there would be enough time for me to go home if I needed to.

    She never really came out and asked me to carry a gun, but she kept mentioning that I had enough time to run home if I needed to and letting me know how worried she was because they were going to have to do it with the husband there... She knows I'm a gun owner and knows that my boss and I were considering taking a CHL class together (which I ended up taking without him).

    The big problem was that I still do not have my CHL... So here's the question... according to the state laws I can keep the firearm in my car (hell, I can keep one of my EBR's in the car too for that matter)... but the rest of the time is an issue. So the question is, if I'm on private property and the owner has asked me to have a weapon on hand (whether carried on my person or kept in my effects and under my direct control) - is that legal?
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes

    The will to win is worthless if you do not have the will to prepare. -Thane Yost

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array deadeye72's Avatar
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    I would think that carry laws only apply to public areas. As long as you don't have to walk down the street or something, I think you would be o.k. I am sure someone on here from your area will be able to tell you with more certainty.
    Glock 27
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  4. #3
    Distinguished Member Array JerryM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinDooley View Post
    A real good friend (and co worker) of mine came up to me at work Sunday and asked if I would be willing to help her sister move out of her apartment and away from an abusive husband Sunday afternoon. She said that there would be enough time for me to go home if I needed to.

    She never really came out and asked me to carry a gun, but she kept mentioning that I had enough time to run home if I needed to and letting me know how worried she was because they were going to have to do it with the husband there... She knows I'm a gun owner and knows that my boss and I were considering taking a CHL class together (which I ended up taking without him).

    The big problem was that I still do not have my CHL... So here's the question... according to the state laws I can keep the firearm in my car (hell, I can keep one of my EBR's in the car too for that matter)... but the rest of the time is an issue. So the question is, if I'm on private property and the owner has asked me to have a weapon on hand (whether carried on my person or kept in my effects and under my direct control) - is that legal?
    In my view this is a terrible idea.
    1. You are getting involved in a marital dispute, and that is a losing situation.

    2. You are going with some expectation of trouble and want to have a gun. If it comes to having to use or even reveal your gun you will probably get arrested and charged. A DA would probably want to know why you got involved in a situation where you thought you might need a gun, and why the woman did not call the police on the abusive husband?

    My advice; Do not get involved. You may end up in jail or injured. You have no reason to have to go against the husband. If there is a problem let the police handle it. It is not your job or responsibility. It could cost you dearly.

    Regards,
    Jerry

  5. #4
    VIP Member Array Paco's Avatar
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    +1 with JerryM.

    If you feel compelled to help, and I think in this case that would be a good thing to do, I'd pop for some movers.

    While you are legal in carrying in your car, and on you in her house (I beleive) the Castle Doctrine states that you have a legal right to be there and are in that location without the intent of wrong doing (not the exact terminology) and a savvy DA could argue that you knew what you were walking in to and that you were there to cause trouble, IMHO.

    There is always the option of handing said Ex-Husband a gift card to Chili's and tell him dinner is on you guys if he would leave while she moves her stuff out.

    The movers and Chili's together would be cheaper than bail and a lawyer.
    "Don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep." - Theodore Roosevelt

    -Paco
    http://www.shieldsd.net

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    Senior Member Array KevinDooley's Avatar
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    Thanks for the advice Jerry. I understand the risks involved, I was just wondering about the legality of actually having the weapon on me. This particular co-worker is closer to me and mine than most familiy, and when I heard her sister had finally decided to leave, there was no chance I was actually going to not help (at least with the actual heavy lifting of her bed, wardrobe, crib, etc.).

    Paco - that actually makes a lot of sense.
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes

    The will to win is worthless if you do not have the will to prepare. -Thane Yost

  7. #6
    Distinguished Member Array JerryM's Avatar
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    There might be a legal question as to who owns the furniture. These things are very complicated, and I also think the "movers" suggestion is an excellent one.
    The house would seem to belong as much to the husband as the wife, and if he objected to taking the furniture it could result is some other charge.

    Sorry I cannot help as to the legality of you carrying your gun, but the risks of getting involved in a marital dispute can be fatal. I do not know for sure, but I have read that more officers are killed and injured when responding to a marital dispute than any other situation. It seems that when the fight starts the wife often goes to the side of the husband.
    I have a friend that responded with his partner to a dispute and suddenly found the wife in the bedroom loading a shotgun to shoot the police officers.

    Best, and be wise.
    Regards,
    Jerry

  8. #7
    Senior Member Array luvmyglock's Avatar
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    +1 for those who say not to get involved in the marital/domestic dispute. These never end well, especially since she has emotional ties to him. There have been many documented cases where the "good guy" has shot the abusive husband in a justified situation, only to have the ex come around and say that the "good guy" shot her husband, and she "loved him", etc... It sjust never turns out well.
    EVIL PREVAILS WHEN GOOD MEN FAIL TO ACT.

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    +1 to not getting involved. On an aside though if you do want to help I would strongly advise having the local PD or SO to send an officer just to maintain calm.
    When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
    "Don't forget, incoming fire has the right of way."

  10. #9
    Senior Member Array kavity's Avatar
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    If she is really that worried about it, she could give the local law enforcement a call and ask them to help out. They may ask the husband to leave or stand by while everything is moved out.

    From what I have seen in the past, if an officer is there there are no violent disputes. However, if the husband wants to be a jackass he can claim that X and Y are his things and that she has no right to them. In which case the LEO will tell her to leave them and settle it in court.


    Remember, if you wouldn't be in a place without a gun...you don't belong there with one.


    As far as legality--isn't Texas open carry? Couldn't you just OC while helping. No need for a permit. That said--this sounds like it could be a volatile situation and I wouldn't recommend getting involved.

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array JimmyC4's Avatar
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    Don't go somewhere where you know ahead of time that you may need a gun....it's that simple!
    "It's a big gun when I carry it, it is also a big gun when I take it out” – Clint Smith

  12. #11
    Member Array Wilhelm's Avatar
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    +1 to not getting involved. Rule number 1 of self defense is avoiding the situation where you might be called upon to defend yourself. If you not only suspect there's going to be a problem (although I would suggest "suspect" is too soft a word, given what you have been told) but actually go out of your way to go home and get a weapon first, you are sticking your neck waaaaay out-- that's arguably premeditation. Even if you had a CCW, one of the things we are taught is a license to carry is not a license to USE the weapon. Yeah I know this isn't the advice you asked for, but others who read this have to know it is an absolute for most responsible gun owners that they not be used in the way you plan. Unless you're a license and bonded bodyguard/security guard or an LEO, stay away from the situation.


    Addendum: Just being on husband's property displaying a gun or even just a don't-mess-with-me attitude may be sufficient for him to apply for a regular civil or domestic violence restraining order, which if granted could result in you having to turn in your guns and restrict or prevent any future purchases. Is this really a risk you want to subject yourself too? Someone else suggested the friend's sister use some professional movers. Solid advice. Offer to pay just half and you're a hero, with no attendant risks to yourself.
    Last edited by Wilhelm; August 14th, 2008 at 06:24 PM. Reason: Additional unsolicited advise

  13. #12
    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyC4 View Post
    Don't go somewhere where you know ahead of time that you may need a gun....it's that simple!
    It is indeed that simple and can't be said any better than Jimmy has said it. I would personally avoid a situation such as the OP has described like the plague.

  14. #13
    Member Array Texas Yankee's Avatar
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    Not a good idea. It also isn't at all clear to me under Texas law that you could legally carry there or that if you were in an altercation, the castle doctrine would apply. Who's place is this, the husband or the wife's? I could see a real issue about whether or not you had permission to carry if the only permission you had was the wife's permission who is moving out. All in all I wouldn't carry and while you may have good reasons for wanting to be involved, I wouldn't go there either.

  15. #14
    Member Array chuck brick's Avatar
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    Jerry, MSGT, et al, are correct; it's not a good idea to go into something like that without a badge.
    As to the basic question, stripping away the details and drama: Yes, in Texas it is legal to carry even without a license on private property if you have the permission of the property owner or the legal representative of said PO. If you carry (without CHL) from your residence, directly to your vehicle (under the "Castle Doctrine," the vehicle is an extension of your residence thus legal to carry within), and directly to your friend's property, you are within the law.
    If you get out of the vehicle (armed) to pump gas or buy a paper, (again, that's without a CHL) you're now in violation.
    At first, when this part of the (Texas' "Castle Doctrine") law passed as such, I was afraid that it would encourage many CHL-holders to let their licenses lapse since so many only keep their gun in the car and not on their persons. However, it seems it may have had the opposite effect; people (apparently getting accustomed to feeling the added security of being legally armed) are actually getting more CHL's. WOOHOO!!! Life is good.

    { [quote] Who's place is this, the husband or the wife's? I could see a real issue about whether or not you had permission to carry if the only permission you had was the wife's permission who is moving out. All in all I wouldn't carry and while you may have good reasons for wanting to be involved, I wouldn't go there either. [quote]
    I meant to address this aspect, but I couldn't have said it better. CB }

    Stay safe,

    Chuck Brick.
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    Because I can't find a source of 250 gr!
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  16. #15
    Senior Member Array KenInColo's Avatar
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    You shouldn't get involved. Family disputes are a cop's worst nightmare. You don't need to be playing the role of a LEO. There are too many down sides.

    If it's possible that a for real LEO can be there, that's the way to go.
    An armed populace are called citizens.
    An unarmed populace are called subjects.

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