Small Texas school district lets teachers, staff pack pistols

This is a discussion on Small Texas school district lets teachers, staff pack pistols within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; It's about time. +1 on Jang's comments also. My thoughts exactly!...

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Thread: Small Texas school district lets teachers, staff pack pistols

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array gddyup's Avatar
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    It's about time.

    +1 on Jang's comments also. My thoughts exactly!
    Firefighter/EMT
    "You've never lived until you've almost died. For those who fight for it, life has a flavor the protected will never know" - T.R.

    <----My LT was unhappy that I did not have my PASS-Tag at that fire. But I found the body so he said he would overlook it. :)

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  3. #32
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    It's a foot in door. Go TX!

    We just had a discussion during one of our teacher in-service meetings about a student (or terrorist) coming into the school with a gun.

    I work in a rural FL school district...the teachers are not all. In fact, most have guns at home...

    When discussing locking of the doors, covering the door windows, and hiding from sight...blah, blah, blah...it was all I could do to NOT talk about gun control (both hands, good stance, proper presentation, and training).

    Most of my colleagues know my position concerning situations like this...I have discussed my position with many staff members...almost six have now sought out their CCW permits...more are planning on it.

    This is obviously driving the anti's crazy......their simple-minded arguments drive me crazy.

    I applaud this TX school supt's actions...it takes 'big ones'.
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

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  4. #33
    VIP Member Array SatCong's Avatar
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    Got to love it. Maybe more schools well jump on the bandwagon.
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  5. #34
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    Great Idea

    My wife is a school teacher and I worry about her safety. I can't get her to carry and she thinks I'm nuts for doing it. How many of these situations have we seen over the years where if a teacher would have been armed the outcome would have been much better. Go Texas, Go!

  6. #35
    Senior Member Array Exodus's Avatar
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    Four words:

    Don't Mess With Texas.

    I love this state. I hate to say this, but it'd almost (ALMOST) be good for there to be a shooting at that school. If an armed teacher stopped a threat, nobody would be able to deny the effectiveness of being prepared. Hopefully, this Supe will give others the courage to take the same stand, and we'll see our schools become safer.
    "To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." Ted Nugent

    SIC VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM.

  7. #36
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    The problem is that the places where this will work; it's not needed. The places where it is needed very badly; it'll NEVER work.

    Many of you know that I'm a teacher in a large inner city high school. I face the kids and the neighborhood every day. Now, I've never felt as if I really needed to be armed even during some of the code red emergencies we've had in the past. Not even after the teacher got car jacked while standing right next to my own vehicle in the parking lot. Could have been me very easily.

    Most of the kids are really good kids just struggling to survive so they can assimilate and prosper.

    Some of the kids are listless and uncaring but not evil. The truly evil ones are mostly outside the perimeter fence, but sometimes there is some overlap. When that happens either it's the right situation or the wrong one. If it's right, you won't need the gun. If it's wrong, the gun won't do you any good.

    The real scum like MS13 and the other gangs are a good distance deeper into the neighborhood and so rarely are they an issue. We have a good security perimeter fence and some decent security guys as well as a regular uniformed cop with access to a major city SWAT team right nearby.

    The real risky scenario, the whacked out lone gunman, seeking vengeance on the world is the most feared and the most prevalent if history is any example.

    But again, given the factors and variables, an armed teacher has little chance of stopping the rampage. He can maybe protect himself and probably his individual class of kids. But that's all. If a shooter starts roaming the halls and I go after him, I could as easily get caught in police crossfire. I could also put myself out of position to take action. I risk getting shot by some LEO who's jittery nerves get the better of him when he sees a man with a gun (me).

    Also a lone gunman roaming the halls present twice the danger while lil ol' me does likewise and I wind up getting "capped" by some freakin' amateur because I can't maintain 24/7 360 degree/ alertness.

    Besides myself there is maybe one or two others who may be qualified to handle a gun well. Certainly while under pressure.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  8. #37
    Senior Member Array Exodus's Avatar
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    You make a very good point Ex.

    But your anecdotes reference a single armed teacher. What if 50% or more are armed? Do you think that would change the outcome of a lone gunmen making trouble?
    "To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." Ted Nugent

    SIC VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM.

  9. #38
    Senior Member Array KenInColo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    ...But again, given the factors and variables, an armed teacher has little chance of stopping the rampage. He can maybe protect himself and probably his individual class of kids. But that's all. If a shooter starts roaming the halls and I go after him, I could as easily get caught in police crossfire. I could also put myself out of position to take action. I risk getting shot by some LEO who's jittery nerves get the better of him when he sees a man with a gun (me).

    Also a lone gunman roaming the halls present twice the danger while lil ol' me does likewise and I wind up getting "capped" by some freakin' amateur because I can't maintain 24/7 360 degree/ alertness...
    Protecting yourself and your class is all you could ask for. You wouldn't want to go out alone. You would want at least one other.


    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus View Post
    You make a very good point Ex.

    But your anecdotes reference a single armed teacher. What if 50% or more are armed? Do you think that would change the outcome of a lone gunmen making trouble?
    +1 You betcha that would change the outcome.
    An armed populace are called citizens.
    An unarmed populace are called subjects.

  10. #39
    Member Array FuzzDawg's Avatar
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    God Bless Texas!! I'm all in favor of this one. The only catch is that a CHL is a license to carry, not use your weapon. I hope that if or when a teacher has to make that choice, the faculty and school board will stand behind that teacher's decision rather than let them be thrown to the anti wolves for doing what was right.

  11. #40
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    Apparently the only smart school district in America! Good for them!
    "If ever time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin."

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  12. #41
    Senior Member Array gddyup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    The problem is that the places where this will work; it's not needed. The places where it is needed very badly; it'll NEVER work.

    Many of you know that I'm a teacher in a large inner city high school. I face the kids and the neighborhood every day. Now, I've never felt as if I really needed to be armed even during some of the code red emergencies we've had in the past. Not even after the teacher got car jacked while standing right next to my own vehicle in the parking lot. Could have been me very easily.

    Most of the kids are really good kids just struggling to survive so they can assimilate and prosper.

    Some of the kids are listless and uncaring but not evil. The truly evil ones are mostly outside the perimeter fence, but sometimes there is some overlap. When that happens either it's the right situation or the wrong one. If it's right, you won't need the gun. If it's wrong, the gun won't do you any good.

    The real scum like MS13 and the other gangs are a good distance deeper into the neighborhood and so rarely are they an issue. We have a good security perimeter fence and some decent security guys as well as a regular uniformed cop with access to a major city SWAT team right nearby.

    The real risky scenario, the whacked out lone gunman, seeking vengeance on the world is the most feared and the most prevalent if history is any example.

    But again, given the factors and variables, an armed teacher has little chance of stopping the rampage. He can maybe protect himself and probably his individual class of kids. But that's all. If a shooter starts roaming the halls and I go after him, I could as easily get caught in police crossfire. I could also put myself out of position to take action. I risk getting shot by some LEO who's jittery nerves get the better of him when he sees a man with a gun (me).

    Also a lone gunman roaming the halls present twice the danger while lil ol' me does likewise and I wind up getting "capped" by some freakin' amateur because I can't maintain 24/7 360 degree/ alertness.

    Besides myself there is maybe one or two others who may be qualified to handle a gun well. Certainly while under pressure.
    Good points Ex. I'll offer this:

    Let's say this new ideology came to your hometown and your system. Let's say that you were the only one who took it up and went to your classroom armed and ready. That "Lone gunman" may not just roam the halls... he may, by chance, come to your class first....

    I know where I'd put my money on that bet...
    Firefighter/EMT
    "You've never lived until you've almost died. For those who fight for it, life has a flavor the protected will never know" - T.R.

    <----My LT was unhappy that I did not have my PASS-Tag at that fire. But I found the body so he said he would overlook it. :)

  13. #42
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Nope.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus View Post
    You make a very good point Ex.

    But your anecdotes reference a single armed teacher. What if 50% or more are armed? Do you think that would change the outcome of a lone gunmen making trouble?
    Nope. They'd still be acting as individuals without a plan or training. Easy meat.

    Look I can give you a single instance where it would have made sense and you can see the odds of it working elsewhere.

    Right after Colombine, I was working at a different inner city school. I knew there were other vets in school so I got them together at my portable classroom late one Friday afternoon and we had a meeting.

    There were three of us. Myself, former Infantry captain, former LEO and a current NRA Instructor/IDPA competitor. I always think tactically. There was a retired USAF "PJ" Special operations medic. There was a retired 1st Sergeant from a US Army Ranger Battalion, with 12 years of experience in a Ranger battalion and combat decorated. We all agreed that we would not allow another massacre of that nature.

    We set plans to cover contingencies. This included a complete recon of the school to identify "choke points," blind corners, darkened hallways and stairwells and rally points based on each of our teaching schedules on a daily basis. Two of the guys said they'd leave a handgun in their cars for the rest of the school year, while I didn't feel that need or to take that risk. I carried a SpyderCo Delica instead.

    The bottom line is that with the training and experience in that room, even unarmed, we were confident we could handle an untrained psycho kid looking to commit random violence. We also agreed that we'd back off and wait if we thought the threat was trained, with a specific agenda. Our FIRST responsibility is the care of the kids that were assigned to us for that instructional period. If it was a planning period, that's great. But the kid's safety comes first.

    Think we were crazy to assert that we could take an armed kid if we were unarmed? Kids and folks without training don't know that the only way to go around corners under the threat of attack they MUST stay well off the walls. You've got to be about 3 or 4 feet off that barrier to get the right angle to go around. Every human instinct screams to hug that wall like spider-man! Blind corners and dark stairwells offer easy ambush possibilities in such a situation. Not that we were looking forward to the proposition! But if it's a Colombine with the cops outside waiting to take their heads from their "fourth point of contact....?" Well you do what must be done.

    Finally we actually practiced moving in a tight fire team wedge, moving from hall to hall and negotiating danger area intersections under the cover of the others keeping 360 degree perimeter security.

    Do you really think that a gaggle of teachers with guns is going to operate with that kind of cooperation? Criminey, they can't even agree in the faculty meetings! The very nature of the teacher is what dooms them to failure in this scenario. Teachers are nurturers that really want to help everybody. They'd want to "reason" with the attackers.... and we all know how well that works.

    I made a promise to myself right after that poor teacher was murdered in Lake Wales, FL in 1994. His name was Barry Gruenow and I burned that scene into my head. A punk had been suspended for roaming the halls and causing trouble so he goes home and gets a gun. It's a classic cheapo like a Lorcin. He goes to this class to see a girl. Mr Gruenow steps into the hallway to dissuade him and you can see on the school security film how the kid and the teacher circle each other in a tight little dance, the teacher with his arms out trying to placate the child. The kid has his gun up and held with two hands right at the teacher. The round is capped off and hits the teacher in the head. The kid gets life in prison. The teacher's family gets a funeral.

    My promise to myself? I GO HOME ALIVE, EVERY DAY. I have worked out that scenario in my mind so many times that the reaction becomes like breathing. I close the distance in one giant step until I'm glued to his side and then I move in aggressive fashion, just like I was taught in the military to take out enemy personnel.

    I'm a cool teacher! Ask any of my kids. I'm a teddy bear. But you open the door to violence and it's MY choice, how far and how fast I step through that door. No half measures once the decision is made. Open the door to violence and nobody has a legitimate objection if they get more violence than they wanted. Either be sensible and quiet and abiding by the laws of man and God or get the law of the jungle. All the way.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  14. #43
    Distinguished Member Array bandit383's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    Nope. They'd still be acting as individuals without a plan or training. Easy meat.
    "Receive training in crisis management and hostile situations."

    Do you know or have some facts that they do not have a plan? I suspect they do...and actually give the school kudos for leaning forward. Will it make a difference...time will tell...but I am betting some BG, whether student or adult, would think twice, plan or no plan. One must remember, they chose this route because they are in the sticks with 30 min+ LEO response times...

    Rick

  15. #44
    Senior Member Array Exodus's Avatar
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    Yet another good point Ex. The article mentions that the teachers who carry must take a crisis management course. I would assume that this would cover scenarios where they should draw and act, and scenarios where they should lock down the class and just protect their kids. I don't think an untrained teacher should ever go 'hunting', but an armed teacher could play an effective defensive role.

    Another question - I'm not very well informed on the statistics of school shootings. What percentage occur during classroom hours? Are they more prevalent during passing period/lunchtime? I'm positive that if it happened during class hours, a single armed teacher in the classroom has a good chance of making a difference. As you point out, if a student gets uppity with you (even when you're not armed), you can handle it. Wouldn't a teacher who is a member of the shooting community have a fair chance of dealing with the situation in a positive manner? They wouldn't have your background and training, but I would assume (I know, I know - never assume) that they would be like most of the people on this board. Hobby shootists who are more aware and invest additional training & much range time in themselves to be able to protect themselves and their family.

    What do you think? Am I off base again?
    "To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." Ted Nugent

    SIC VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM.

  16. #45
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paco View Post
    That depends greatly on where you are going to school. When I was in H.S. we had several riots where it required LEO to be called out in force. shotguns and other small arms were found as well as a plethora of knives and sticks of varying styles. We also had several shootings, a drive by on our football team, and some stabbings and number of 5, 6, 7 on 1 jumpings. Yours truly was jumped by 8 once while walking home.

    Ah, the memories...

    I think it is great, as you stated, for the Superintendent to make this decision. I hope more will follow suit.
    I'll second that...I went through most of grade school in Baltimore and saw my fair share of "life-threatening" fights. Even a few where the staff trying to break them up got stuck by knives that weren't produced until someone tried to break them up. Hell, one school I went too if a fight broke out in the hall, the other students would block off the halls and not let anyone(including the on-duty local PD guards) through while bookies sat atop the lockers taking bets on who was going to end up in the ER or worse. School isn't what it used to be.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

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