Small Texas school district lets teachers, staff pack pistols - Page 4

Small Texas school district lets teachers, staff pack pistols

This is a discussion on Small Texas school district lets teachers, staff pack pistols within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; ExSoldier, as usual, you make some excellent points. While I agree that it armed teachers in the smaller school may seem to be something that ...

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Thread: Small Texas school district lets teachers, staff pack pistols

  1. #46
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    ExSoldier, as usual, you make some excellent points.

    While I agree that it armed teachers in the smaller school may seem to be something that isn't really needed, fact of the matter is, where most school shootings have occurred aren't the high risk school where metal detectors, lots of cops and lock-downs are the norm.

    Most of them were typical middle class schools,where fights are the exception rather than the norm, and about the most serious event for the day was someone showing up to class late.

    I don't think anyone expects a couple of armed teachers to act as a SWAT team and go clearing halls and classrooms as a team. I think the expectation will be that you hear shots fired, you lock the door, turn off the light,your students huddle up in the off corner and the teacher covers the door with handgun, and no one goes out until the appropriate code word is spoken.

    In most schools,there are usually a couple of individuals that have more of a clue about theses things that most people that could probably act efficiently if they had to. They might be ex military, ex cops, or just people that shoot alot and take carrying a gun pretty seriously. These are the kind of guys that will run to the shots rather than away from them.

    If you were toting at school and heard shots a door or two down from yours, I don't expect you would huddle up in the fetal position and pray, I believe that you would do whatever it took to save lives. You know the risks, and you know the ramifications of not acting when action needs to happen.

    If we had just a couple of individuals like that in a school,(and I believe that most do), I think that it would be a major deterrent to someone trying it.

    Just the fact, that some teachers may be carrying or have access to a gun, will cause the mental case that wants to shoot up a school to go somewhere else.

    If nothing else, if an active shooter does start shooting in a school, at the very least when he got a class where a teacher was armed and waiting, it could possibly be the end of the rampage when he got shot. I'm not naive enough to believe that it would always be a winning situation, but its a much better scenario than we have now, which is a guaranteed LOSS, if it happens.

    If it happened where my kid went to school, I would much rather think that they had a little bit of a chance of survival, rather than none at all. And if I was a kid, all huddled up with the lights turned off and scared silly with my friends all around me,shivering with fear when they heard shots going off, if my teacher were armed at least I would have a tiny bit of hope, where as we might have none.

    In my way of thinking, having just a little bit of hope is a whole lot better than having none.
    Last edited by HotGuns; August 16th, 2008 at 06:35 PM.
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  2. #47
    Senior Member Array agentmel's Avatar
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    +1 to HotGuns.

    I am a teacher and a former MP. We have retired Marines, Army officers, etc. as well at my school.

    Ex makes some interesting points, but I think I missed the post where someone mentioned the training center where lone gunmen get their tactical training. Its well-understood that initiating the violence gives you an edge, but these are not exactly former Navy SEALs who do this sort of thing.

    Additionally, as much as I love working with students I doubt that if you polled them the first word they would pick to describe me would be "nurturing." I've used force in the past and am prepared to do so again.

    At school, my door is always locked. Being Florida, schools are all built as hurricane shelters. I'm fairly well convinced it would take an RPG or some explosive to open my door without the key. Someone trying to shoot the lock would just give me warning.

    Even if none of this were true, it cannot possibly be better to be defenseless. While I agree that teachers wouldn't be able to mount a coordinated, textbook counter-ambush, there's no virtue in total defenselessness. If teachers are allowed to carry concealed, then any potential bad guy has another factor to consider in his plans. Until such time as that's an option here, I'm stuck with my 9 1/2" Spyderco.

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  3. #48
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    That's wonderful.

    I wonder if there is a job opening for an experienced Broadcast Engineer in that school district. I would be very willing to move my family there right now with this kind of logical, level headed people running thigs there.

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  4. #49
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Your school is very different from mine

    Quote Originally Posted by agentmel View Post
    +1 to HotGuns.

    I am a teacher and a former MP. We have retired Marines, Army officers, etc. as well at my school.

    Ex makes some interesting points, but I think I missed the post where someone mentioned the training center where lone gunmen get their tactical training. Its well-understood that initiating the violence gives you an edge, but these are not exactly former Navy SEALs who do this sort of thing.

    Additionally, as much as I love working with students I doubt that if you polled them the first word they would pick to describe me would be "nurturing." I've used force in the past and am prepared to do so again.

    At school, my door is always locked. Being Florida, schools are all built as hurricane shelters. I'm fairly well convinced it would take an RPG or some explosive to open my door without the key. Someone trying to shoot the lock would just give me warning.

    Even if none of this were true, it cannot possibly be better to be defenseless. While I agree that teachers wouldn't be able to mount a coordinated, textbook counter-ambush, there's no virtue in total defenselessness. If teachers are allowed to carry concealed, then any potential bad guy has another factor to consider in his plans. Until such time as that's an option here, I'm stuck with my 9 1/2" Spyderco.

    Mel
    We just moved from a school built in 1932 and had asbestos laced walls two feet thick (in places) into a brand new building with walls so thin some of my students might be able to punch right through them. If the teacher next door sneezes I automatically say "GOD BLESS YOU!" AND can hear them say "THANK YOU!" Those walls won't even stop a 22LR although they might stop a "short."

    Whereas the old school was added to constantly over a period of many decades and had a convoluted floor plan with many many blind corners and tight passages, the new school is nothing but long straight and wide corridors that go nonstop for at least a hundred meters with three floors all constant and equal.

    Yes, we have a good sturdy iron bar fence that circles the perimeter with gates all locked and good control over visitors and all folks coming onto or leaving campus. The police are very nearby all the time and if an active "shooter" were to go "HOT" at the control points there'd be an excellent chance of the police (Miami FL) stopping the issue in it's tracks before the situation got wet with student or teacher blood.

    This current school is much closer to the downtown area than my last, so I know response times are going to be much quicker. That is also a limiting factor in accessibility and targeting although granted that such factors are low on the list of priorities for a deranged person bent on chaos and death.

    Nurturing is not a word MY kids would use to describe me, either! when I was younger and looked more the part, they used to call me "Captain." They still call me "Sir."

    I have never been assaulted or even come close to an incident at any school in which I've taught. That has to do with a military term known as BEARING. All officers and nco's are specifically trained to have BEARING and a "command presence." That tends to restrain little punks who are used to pushing soft liberal NURTURING types all over the campus at will. Most of the other educational professionals I work with fall into that "nurturing" category. The outstanding exceptions to that are the JROTC army folks and the coaching staff.

    After Colombine we at that other school were really shocked and more than a little PO'ed at the way the situation was handled by law enforcement. There was the tendency by us to plan for a repetition of that event in the same way we might prepare for a military operation. The kind of operation we had in mind was known as a "Movement to Contact."

    Having had a number of years more experience now and time to grow more fully into the profession, I'd have to agree that the key would be to hole up and keep away from likely avenues of approach while waiting for the cavalry. Also not to discuss as a matter of class morale, the Battle of Hastings, The Alamo or Dien Bien Phu! If I knew the shooter was next door and I was armed or maybe even if I wasn't, as a dedicated sheepdog, I'd have to ride towards the smell of gun smoke.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  5. #50
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Wink Have a plan....then have a backup plan and a plan to back THAT one up...

    Quote Originally Posted by bandit383 View Post
    "Receive training in crisis management and hostile situations."

    Do you know or have some facts that they do not have a plan? I suspect they do...and actually give the school kudos for leaning forward. Will it make a difference...time will tell...but I am betting some BG, whether student or adult, would think twice, plan or no plan. One must remember, they chose this route because they are in the sticks with 30 min+ LEO response times...Rick
    There is an old saying in the military that I suspect dates back to the Roman Empire. It goes something like this: No plan survives the first contact, INTACT.

    Having a plan and even training for the plan is great but when the world explodes and the plan goes south I want to know that the team or the individual will react based on experience if they're unholstering firearms around my kid.

    That little team of teachers that I ran with in my little scenario. I'd put my life or my kid's life in their hands without a moment's hesitation because I personally know the capability of each.

    If I don't know them personally, but I know they're former infantry, MP, or other combat arms with even a single tour of duty even non combat duty -- then I'm happy because I know the standards of those outfits. I know the training and I know the motto: TRAIN LIKE YOU FIGHT.

    The next step down is the citizen with the CCW. Then I want to know how long he's had it and what training he has had beyond the "official" training he's getting for this duty. If he's an NRA Instructor, that's great and in fact that's enough.

    If he's not, then I want to know if he belongs to IPSC or IDPA and for how long. If he does shoot those matches I'd want to know how he ranks and I'd like it to be at least "marksman." I don't care if they're any higher even up to the level of Master. I don't care if they play the game so well but I do care if they're competent to play the game at all. I don't care about speed I care about tactics and accuracy.

    Does what I say make sense? I'm not making any sort of attempt to say anybody should be excluded because of training or any thing that the antis could use as an excuse to further their own cause. No way do I mean that and nobody here should read what I say like that. I want these teachers turn defenders to be vetted in some way.

    Here is an example: In the 1970s Israeli schools were targeted by terrorists. This happened many times. But when the Teachers were ALL issued Uzis, the attacks stopped. Why is that important? All Israeli citizens are required to undergo combat training and spend some time on active military duty or in the reserves.

    If any of the teachers that do this kind of program are Israeli citizens and have undergone that training, then that is fine with me.

    But in the reverse case, for example, I just gave a colleague of mine a training class for his concealed weapons permit here in FL. He's older than I, got ultra long hair (real hippie type) rides a Harley and is a passable decent shot. I trust him to carry a gun for his own defense and the defense of his family. Would I want him to do that in school? No, because he's still a novice at CCW.

    OTOH, there is a guy on campus that I would immediately trust in that same role. He's teaches AP English and I know he's good because I used to be his Commanding Officer when I was in the FL Army National Guard back in the late 1980s. See? I know the training and I know the standards.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  6. #51
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    I am willing to bet money any teachers who sign up will be given special training by an instructor in how to defend their classroom from an armed threat including firearms training.It's not a good idea to roam the halls looking for the bad guy it's better to wait in ambush,also the teachers know each other and could pick out a stranger with a gun pretty easily
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  7. #52
    New Member Array Tom Gresham's Avatar
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    Superintendent on Gun Talk Radio

    David Thweatt, the superintendent of this school district, is scheduled to be a guest on my live radio talk show this Sunday at 1:30pm Central time.

    Gun Talk runs from 1:00pm until 4:00pm Central each Sunday, and is carried in 55 markets, plus XM Satellite radio (channel 166 starting at 7:00pm Central).

    A list of stations (including those which stream live on the web) can be found here.

    Listen to Gun Talk Radio : Tom Gresham's Gun Talk Radio Show : High Powered Talk Radio

    The show can also be dowloaded at: Guntalk's Podcast

    I had a nice talk with David. He totally "gets it" about concealed carry and real security at schools. Should be an interesting conversation this afternoon.

  8. #53
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    Good Morning America had an interview with David Thweatt this morning but they have not posted a video link. The interview was well done with Mr Thweatt countering the usual anti-self defense question with well thought responses.

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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paymeister View Post
    The 'break up the fight in the cafeteria" scenario is of concern IF the armed teacher were to be so foolish as to get involved. School fights are rarely life-threatening, and could be handled by other teachers who were not carrying. Also, there's gun retention and gun retention: I broke up lots of fights when I taught, and not a one of them would have been a problem with a Smart Carry.
    The gun would be out of sight, and optimally none of the kids would know which teachers carried.

    To deter and protect against school shootings, trustees have altered district policy to allow employees to carry concealed weapons
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  10. #55
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    I have never been assaulted or even come close to an incident at any school in which I've taught. That has to do with a military term known as BEARING. All officers and nco's are specifically trained to have BEARING and a "command presence." That tends to restrain little punks who are used to pushing soft liberal NURTURING types all over the campus at will. Most of the other educational professionals I work with fall into that "nurturing" category. The outstanding exceptions to that are the JROTC army folks and the coaching staff.
    I've hesitated to join in on this conversation for the last several days, as I have been trained to never attract attention to my position unless absolutely necessary. Prior to becoming an educator, I spent 25 years working the special op's field for my rich uncle, that's all I'm going to say about that. I'm no cream puff, and when I want to I have more than enough military bearing (retired MSG E-8, you don't get there wearing a green beanie and being a "nice guy"). Even with that background and now working in a school that is middle to upper middle class, I've had to disarm a student who pulled a knife in my class...the BEARING and COMMAND PRESENCE BS just doesn't work with some kids or adults, if they think they can win, they're going to give it there best shot. Prior to that incident I never carried at school, I was still at condition yellow, but didn't feel it was that necessary, now I carry 24/7. The problem is, even with all of your planning, preparation, and intel you just always don't know when or where the threat is going to come from, you have to be ready all the time for every conceivable scenario you can think of, you have to always think out of the box, is that paranoia? Maybe, but I like to think of it as prior planning prevents **** poor performance...and I'm still alive today to talk about it. I agree, I wouldn't want all of my fellow educators carrying a weapon, but I'll always have mine. A key element is to not let anyone know that you're armed and be proficient with your weapon, get the necessary training before you start. Now I'm no hero and my name isn't John Wayne, I believe in letting the enemy die for his country, instead of me, but when the dance starts I'd rather be ready than have one or more of my students or faculty members laying in their own blood. The gang task force commander of our PD talked to our faculty prior to the commencement of school. One of the comments he made was that, in the event of an incident, they could generally be to our school in three minutes... I asked him "generally" how long school shootings lasted, his response was, "school shootings generally last less than three minutes..." then he gave me the look of "I'm happy that you understand what I'm trying to tell everyone." The only person at my school who knows that I'm armed is our SRO. He knows a little about me and thanked me for being armed and letting him know, I felt it was important for him to know, that way if anything goes south, I won't have a bullseye painted on my forehead. He told me it was "comforting" to know I would be armed if anything ever happened, because he "couldn't be everywhere all of the time." With all said, my first priority is my student's and my classroom's protection if the lockdown takes place, I have a plan and I'm prepared because I feel it's my responsibility to take care of my troops, and in this case my troops are all of my students...anytime, anyplace, anywhere.
    The first time you aren't armed and prepared may be the last time you wished you were.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Gresham View Post
    David Thweatt, the superintendent of this school district, is scheduled to be a guest on my live radio talk show this Sunday at 1:30pm Central time.

    Gun Talk runs from 1:00pm until 4:00pm Central each Sunday, and is carried in 55 markets, plus XM Satellite radio (channel 166 starting at 7:00pm Central).

    A list of stations (including those which stream live on the web) can be found here.

    Listen to Gun Talk Radio : Tom Gresham's Gun Talk Radio Show : High Powered Talk Radio

    The show can also be dowloaded at: Guntalk's Podcast

    I had a nice talk with David. He totally "gets it" about concealed carry and real security at schools. Should be an interesting conversation this afternoon.
    I seldom catch your program, but the few times I have, it has been "impressive."

    Thanks.

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